Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

[Hon]

We're all just humans

And cats are humans, too! But I'm not so sure about the robots among us.

 

[Wes]

Unless you are posting in the Sound Science section, Head-Fi mods will remove any posts that mention blind or ABX testing because they are "off-topic."

It's not the only site like that. Computer Audio went down the tubes after the site owner discovered that reality based posts were harming his plan to monetize the site as an ad server.

It's also clear that trolls from other sites or from grift-based equipment makers join here and attempt to pick fights with people.

That said, there can be a fan-boi aspect here and overuse of engineering judgment based gap-filler when we should have DBTs.

Then there are people who seriously over-interpret studies, like in the recent thread on echoic memory.

 

[Pharos]

One of my reasons for tending to dislike subjectivist forums is their tendency to sensor things, whereas science necessitates inclusion of all information which could conceivably be relevant to functioning effectiveness.

To preclude any measurement which is counter to the assertion that a product is good just because it is liked, or that to someone it sounds superb, is ridiculous. Vehement defensiveness and intense attack, can be real giveaways of the inflexible and hence non inquisitional stance.

I see scientific pursuit a little like rock climbing in that a step is taken, checked, and if it seems OK then it is relied on, and another tentatively taken., and then checked.

 

[Pharos]

No, I meant what I said, but maybe a little loosely expressed; attack of others is not necessarily inquisitional, it is often lateral in nature and on a completely different front, and an all inclusive inquisitional stance surely includes self analysis.

Non inquisitional attack is often exhibited when the attack is off topic in some way, and this illustrates an agenda which is other then enquiry into the subject points being dealt with, veering the argument away from the original point.

 

[krabapple]

I think a lot of us wound up here after (in some cases) years of being on audiophile sites and getting so sick of reading preposterous conversations about the sound of wires or electronics that we couldn't stand it anymore. Not to mention the fact that when we dared to post our thoughts about such things on these forums we were responded to with either insults or just plain hatred.

It's not like no sites like ASR existed online before ASR. Hydrogenaudio has enforced 'no subjectivist BS' TOS for 20+ years now. It's not a hardware testing site though.

Audioholics is a sorta in betweener. Articles *mostly* objectivist, comments sections shot through with the usual delusional nonsense.

 

[Weeb Labs]

Call me pedantic in this regard but I have never referred to myself as an objectivist. It has always struck me as "other people's word". As far as I am concerned, audio is just as much a science as video and color.

In much the same sense, I would never call myself or want to be called an "Evolutionist" despite holding positions congruent with what is typically associated with those terms.

 

[Kegemusha]

I am grateful I discovered this forum a couple of months ago, I can not call myself "audiophiliac or audiocoholic" or any other terms, I just love music.
I am from a very humble background in what you might call 3rd world country, we had just money for food and roof but at age 12 I could listen to music, radio at 1st (I start to love music by then), in a mono tape player/recorder, and I think I bought my 1st cassette at age 15.
Some years later I got work and I manged to buy a refurbished Sansui amp, Sony LP player, kenwood cassette player and DIY speakers 70W power by then I think the system was.
1LP cost me 1,5 week salary at that time, so you have to love music to spend that money, I was lucky and now things are very different.

I dont believe in what they review anymore if it is not a measured way to prove that, I cant believe in other person ears, if you listen to all reviews, utube mostly, every new amp is the best, and dacs "sound" wide open, seems like you need a 1000€ DAC to be able to enjoy music the way it is.
Like if I would need latest Nikon or Sony 6500€ camera to take good pics.

I do not change gear often, only if I need it, so after buying my current amp in 2014,from press and review, never again.
Now I will change that amp (that is a DAC too) for a good measured amp and dedicated DAC that is recommended in this forum so lets see what happens, I have good speakers already that I will take to me grave anyway.

I can not see this HiFi market to be big, maybe that is why they need to invent nonsense like MQA (when Qobuz can stream CD quality already and soon Spotify seems like too) I work in a place we are like 1000 Engineers and I know a lot of people there, SW and HW , and I only know we are 5 (If I add friends too) that have some good HiFi systems at home (and all 2nd hand stuff), ok 1 is what we could call gear crazy audiophile.
I dont think this HiFi market is big at all and companies have to take a lot of money to survive, that could be fine if the product is really good.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I work in a place we are like 1000 Engineers and I know a lot of people there, SW and HW , and I only know we are 5 (If I add friends too) that have some good HiFi systems at home (and all 2nd hand stuff), ok 1 is what we could call gear crazy audiophile

My experience too, and I think you are completely correct.
Back in the late 1960s when I first took an interest I think a bigger proportion bought hifi simply because it was the only "gadget" they could play with but nowadays with computers, tablets, games consoles etc there are far more outlets for the gadget fanatics and hifi has lost out for all those for whom music wasn't the main reason for their interest IMO.

 

[Thomas savage]

I think a lot of us wound up here after (in some cases) years of being on audiophile sites and getting so sick of reading preposterous conversations about the sound of wires or electronics that we couldn't stand it anymore. Not to mention the fact that when we dared to post our thoughts about such things on these forums we were responded to with either insults or just plain hatred. I swore off stereophile after reading a review of a $54,000
amplifier in which the reviewer waxes poetic about the sound in such silly and imaginative prose that this review has to be read to be believed.
And when he stated that "the sound quality is commensurate with the price" I had finally had enough. I've not been back to stereophile since. What bothers me about reviews like this is that the idea that someone would buy this amp is truly offensive to me. Normally I don't begrudge what people want to spend their money on. It's their business and who am I to judge?" But there's something about a 54K amp that just drives me nuts.
Considering all of the worthwhile things which one could spend their money on this seems like self-gratification on an obscene scale. Not to mention profoundly stupid. Sorry for the rant. Just my opinion.

Heres the thing , I know a few audio dealers and more importantly distributors and I can tell you people demand more expensive products. If something is too cheap for them its a deal breaker .

Its a need , they literally need it to cost more to feel secure about its quality and function.

These aren't all terrible people either . Humans are strange beasts .

 

[rdenney]

Heres the thing , I know a few audio dealers and more importantly distributors...

Manufacturers, too.

But Amir has tested some really expensive items that performed superbly, and deserve praise no matter how much they cost. Those items would serve those who need or want to spend a lot, and would also reward good engineering and product design.

I don't think it's the job of controlled testing or performance measurement to judge people for spending a lot. It's simply the job of testing and measurement to tell people how products perform. I sometimes think many here have more anti-wealth sentiments than anti-myth-and-lore objectives. I see the same anti-wealth antagonists on watch forums.

Rick "brand and beauty are valid discriminators in addition to functional performance" Denney

 

[Thomas savage]

Manufacturers, too.

But Amir has tested some really expensive items that performed superbly, and deserve praise no matter how much they cost. Those items would serve those who need or want to spend a lot, and would also reward good engineering and product design.

I don't think it's the job of controlled testing or performance measurement to judge people for spending a lot. It's simply the job of testing and measurement to tell people how products perform. I sometimes think many here have more anti-wealth sentiments than anti-myth-and-lore objectives. I see the same anti-wealth antagonists on watch forums.

Rick "brand and beauty are valid discriminators in addition to functional performance" Denney

Yes I agree mate , very common behaviour often as you say dressed up to be something very different.

Commonly observed in cults and extremist groups .

 

[Thomas savage]

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Puritanism

 

[thegeton]

Manufacturers, too.

But Amir has tested some really expensive items that performed superbly, and deserve praise no matter how much they cost. Those items would serve those who need or want to spend a lot, and would also reward good engineering and product design.

I don't think it's the job of controlled testing or performance measurement to judge people for spending a lot. It's simply the job of testing and measurement to tell people how products perform. I sometimes think many here have more anti-wealth sentiments than anti-myth-and-lore objectives. I see the same anti-wealth antagonists on watch forums.

Rick "brand and beauty are valid discriminators in addition to functional performance" Denney

Hear, hear!

I frequently get requests from marketing teams to develop things that make no sense to me. In the end, it's not really my job to "question these things to death." Healthy push-back is a necessary part of the process, but ultimately I have to let these people do their jobs by doing mine.

Similarly, when my team is testing, characterizing, or otherwise validating the performance of some of these dubious projects, it isn't our job to "make them fail because they deserve it." Our job is to perform our activities objectively and evaluate the results with that same lack of bias, judgment, or prejudice. The factual results have to speak for themselves. Business decisions must be enabled by solid information, founded upon accurate data.

Like someone once said, 'Let the market decide what is a successful product.'

 

[DonH56]

Heres the thing , I know a few audio dealers and more importantly distributors and I can tell you people demand more expensive products. If something is too cheap for them its a deal breaker .

Its a need , they literally need it to cost more to feel secure about its quality and function.

These aren't all terrible people either . Humans are strange beasts .

Decades ago I was looking at a used preamp priced at $450 (a princely sum for me at the time). The dealer commented it hadn't sold because it was priced too low... He bumped it to $750 and sold it a few days later. Probably coincidental but a lesson learned... People tend to associate "price" with "quality". For too many things these days, and probably back then, that is not a valid presumption.

As for humans being strange beasts, you worked for Amir, right? Not sure what that says about the strangeness of either of you...

 

[Thomas savage]

Decades ago I was looking at a used preamp priced at $450 (a princely sum for me at the time). The dealer commented it hadn't sold because it was priced too low... He bumped it to $750 and sold it a few days later. Probably coincidental but a lesson learned... People tend to associate "price" with "quality". For too many things these days, and probably back then, that is not a valid presumption.

As for humans being strange beasts, you worked for Amir, right? Not sure what the says about the strangeness of either of you...

You'd think @amirm would of learned the lessons of ' what not to do ' after the ...,

I can surely be forgiven , foolishness of youth , amirm ? Alas at least now he's hiring better quality man slaves .. more by luck than judgement.

 

[ctakim]

One point that I find to be quite amusing is the notion that "science" and measurements should be the final say in any argument. As a scientist, the heated debates that are frequent at scientific meetings should dispel this notion forthright. Even in the heightened realm of science there is ample room for disagreement!!

 

[DonH56]

One point that I find to be quite amusing is the notion that "science" and measurements should be the final say in any argument. As a scientist, the heated debates that are frequent at scientific meetings should dispel this notion forthright. Even in the heightened realm of science there is ample room for disagreement!!

So the science is unproven if you (anybody, not "you" you) claim silver sounds different than copper wire in an interconnect? There are plenty of places where science is unproven or preferences rule over "science", but in some areas I would have thought the science is more than good enough.

The problem I have with these sorts of debates IME/IMO is that I'll almost never use an absolute like "there is no difference between silver and copper"; of course there is, and I can measure it, but for an audio interconnect the differences are inaudible. Again IME/IMO. But if it matters to me in my day job, at 10's of GHz, then somebody will claim it is audible, so I tend to ignore my little engineering voice and say "there is no difference". If all we have are opinions, and the science is never provable, then we might as well close up ASR and give Amir some time off.

Preferences matter, and can be influenced by a myriad of things, but where fights tend to break out is when somebody feels somebody else is making claims against "reasonable" (sorry) science and pushing some (generally expensive) solution to a problem most feel is proven inaudible.

Of course there is a lot of grey area, but I cringe when I go with my son to pick up new speakers and the salesman tells him he needs to spend hundreds of dollars on speaker wire "good enough" for his new speakers. What if I were not there to say no? But of course maybe I am causing him to miss lots of fine musical details by not chipping in for expensive cables... It never ends.

 

[MarkS]

Simple answer: blind listening. If you can reliably tell whether your system has the silver interconnect or the copper interconnect just by listening to it, then no measurements are needed.

 

[ctakim]

So the science is unproven if you (anybody, not "you" you) claim silver sounds different than copper wire in an interconnect? There are plenty of places where science is unproven or preferences rule over "science", but in some areas I would have thought the science is more than good enough.

The problem I have with these sorts of debates IME/IMO is that I'll almost never use an absolute like "there is no difference between silver and copper"; of course there is, and I can measure it, but for an audio interconnect the differences are inaudible. Again IME/IMO. But if it matters to me in my day job, at 10's of GHz, then somebody will claim it is audible, so I tend to ignore my little engineering voice and say "there is no difference". If all we have are opinions, and the science is never provable, then we might as well close up ASR and give Amir some time off.

Preferences matter, and can be influenced by a myriad of things, but where fights tend to break out is when somebody feels somebody else is making claims against "reasonable" (sorry) science and pushing some (generally expensive) solution to a problem most feel is proven inaudible.

Of course there is a lot of grey area, but I cringe when I go with my son to pick up new speakers and the salesman tells him he needs to spend hundreds of dollars on speaker wire "good enough" for his new speakers. What if I were not there to say no? But of course maybe I am causing him to miss lots of fine musical details but not chipping in for expensive cables... It never ends.

Fully agree! My comment was more on invoking science as a debate point and not on copper vs silver cables. I do not believe that there is any audible difference between the two in almost any relevant home sound system setup. But that is my informed opinion!

 

[Pharos]

As an objectivist I would love to agree completely, but I, with an audiologist friend, have heard differences between speaker cables.

In 2002 after rebuilding a pair of speakers, my enthusiasm for the project became displaced into my being influenced by subjectivists. I tried QED Silver Anniversary, and then Kimber 4TC, both of same lengths, and we agreed that the silver sounder brighter. I then changed the 4TC to 8TC, a litz configuration, the top went awry, (dull), and the bass boosted by subjectively about 5dB. This was clearly wrong to us.

These subjective results remain a complete mystery to me, but the woofer was a low 2.5 ohms, and this may have influenced the results with the latter cable. It is also important to accept that perception id a major part of science.