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Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

I’ve invented an appliance that makes audio improve through the use of subnatural forces. Can I call it magic or to I need to make up a new term for it? I’m working on another that uses abnatural methods.
 
How do I stop receiving activity notifications on forums I've participated in? This is beyond me.
 
As much as I enjoyed reading this and even found some relatable issues the term ‘real magic’ is inherently flawed. Magic is about deception and not truth as is sorcery, it’s about a temporal relationship with one’s own immediate condition and that of others and with questionable motive; a very seasonal fair weather friend with no longevity, gravity or even sincerity to speak of. Any ‘magician’ will eventually tell you that, trust me I know a few and have the privilege of knowing far beyond this world and its guises, even the magicians master.
Regardless to say your advice against losing one’s own soul to the advance of science in owns own life is beneficial for all concerned, getting hotheaded over the inevitable outcome of man’s products being improved upon in these knowledgable times is a vanity that one should not entertain. I am personally also willing to heed advice such in recognition of a common peace and an obedience to my own Master and it does take a little practice.
Cheers!

Five years late but worth the wait!

:rolleyes:
 
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Arthur C. Clarke
He hasn't read any of the audio Hi-End journals or websites like Stereophile. TAS, Audiophile Style, Head-Fi, must I go on. :p LOL.
Sal1950
 
I’ve invented an appliance that makes audio improve through the use of subnatural forces. Can I call it magic or to I need to make up a new term for it? I’m working on another that uses abnatural methods.
Ha, I’m working on hypernatural methods. Maybe even large natural….
 
It’s late so I’ve taken the cheap/fast route of
ChatGPT. I prompted it to name some famous music sound engineers and their technical backgrounds.
A brief respectful dissent: It’s completely inappropriate, especially in the midst of a thoughtful debate about expertise and what qualifies as authoritative knowledge, to copy/paste unreliable, plagiarized, mindless AI slop, after you’ve already made convincing points about the apprenticeship process and non-academic learning on the job in filmmaking and audio, based on solid personal experience and knowledge. That AI spam doesn’t belong in a discussion like this IMO.
 
A brief respectful dissent: It’s completely inappropriate, especially in the midst of a thoughtful debate about expertise and what qualifies as authoritative knowledge, to copy/paste unreliable, plagiarized, mindless AI slop, after you’ve already made convincing points about the apprenticeship process and non-academic learning on the job in filmmaking and audio, based on solid personal experience and knowledge. That AI spam doesn’t belong in a discussion like this IMO.
Matt has made it his mission here to ride the fence that divides the objective and subjective.
He thinks we need to open our minds to the "sounds good to me" position and support their approach to audio. :(
 
Matt has made it his mission here to ride the fence that divides the objective and subjective.
He thinks we need to open our minds to the "sounds good to me" position and support their approach to audio. :(
There is nothing wrong with ‘sounds good to me’ it’s when it becomes you most follow my lead, because it ‘sounds good to me’ that is the problem.
 
There is nothing wrong with ‘sounds good to me’ it’s when it becomes you most follow my lead, because it ‘sounds good to me’ that is the problem.
Not really. If you enjoy your rig the way it sounds, no one can debate that but,
What we do here is to present the "evidence" of the products that provide a clearer window of the source material, that's what High Fidelity means.
The youngster driving down the street in his car with his system blasting, every panel of the car buzzing and rattling, will swear to you his rig is the BEST,
it "sounds good to him". Now I'm sure that's true, but it's miles away from what anyone would call a "High Fidelity" system.
Factual Presentable Truths are one thing, and BS is BS, that's another. ;)
 
Not really. If you enjoy your rig the way it sounds, no one can debate that but,
What we do here is to present the "evidence" of the products that provide a clearer window of the source material, that's what High Fidelity means.
The youngster driving down the street in his car with his system blasting, every panel of the car buzzing and rattling, will swear to you his rig is the BEST,
it "sounds good to him". Now I'm sure that's true, but it's miles away from what anyone would call a "High Fidelity" system.
Factual Presentable Truths are one thing, and BS is BS, that's another. ;)

I uh, think you two are in agreement.
 
It seems like one way to integrate "sounds good to me" with the ASR approach would be to learn what deviations from neutrality sound good to you and select components (probably speakers) with those deviations. Although it still seems like EQ from neutral baseline would be easier.

Aside from that, I don't know why one would invest so much in a scientific process only to throw it out the window and buy something of unknown fidelity. Maybe @MattHooper can describe his process?
 
It seems like one way to integrate "sounds good to me" with the ASR approach would be to learn what deviations from neutrality sound good to you and select components (probably speakers) with those deviations.

The way to integrate it is to recognize that "sounds good to me" ≠ "sounds good to others".

Nobody has an issue with someone having a preference.
 
It seems like one way to integrate "sounds good to me" with the ASR approach would be to learn what deviations from neutrality sound good to you and select components (probably speakers) with those deviations. Although it still seems like EQ from neutral baseline would be easier.
Simply put, this is one of those things that teaches you what you actually like. It doesn't judge what you like, it simply finds out what that might be.

Sometimes, in the process of learning, that might change, too.
 
Not only is there nothing wrong with “sounds good to me”, the only alternative is “sounds good to others.”

There is no theoretical equivalent of a straight to the brain as audio is not recorded as a sound field, it is recorded as individual channels.
 
Not only is there nothing wrong with “sounds good to me”, the only alternative is “sounds good to others.”

There is no theoretical equivalent of a straight to the brain as audio is not recorded as a sound field, it is recorded as individual channels.

It is possible to record enough channels, carefully, to keep the perceptual cues, but it's not generally done, and most modern recordings don't even have a "soundfield" to start with. Perhaps I should say "never done", but claiming a negative is iffy.
 
It seems like one way to integrate "sounds good to me" with the ASR approach would be to learn what deviations from neutrality sound good to you and select components (probably speakers) with those deviations. Although it still seems like EQ from neutral baseline would be easier.

Aside from that, I don't know why one would invest so much in a scientific process only to throw it out the window and buy something of unknown fidelity. Maybe @MattHooper can describe his process?

I’m not gonna be much help answering your question unfortunately.

I am good with EQ (I use it all the time of my work), but when it comes to loudspeakers things get more complex and I’ve never been able to confidently predict that I would like a loudspeaker just from the measurements.
Despite the fact that I always look at the speaker measurements when they’re available.

I’m not saying that’s a failing of measurements… it must be a failing on my end.

I know that I can rule out certain loudspeakers from measurements that I would never buy. For instance, the recent Borresen x3/x6 speakers that have a deep chunk out of the midrange. So I can see plenty of loudspeakers that measure bad enough in a way that I can predict, that I would not want to purchase.

But when it comes to the loudspeakers that I really like, I can’t say there’s anything I can pin down just from this measurements that make them sound special to me. I just like a speaker or I don’t. And the thing is I like different sounding loudspeakers, so I don’t think there’s one single set of measurements that I would be seeking.

But on that note, here’s a comparison of some loudspeakers that I’m familiar with:

Paradigm Persona

1743560617282.jpeg


Joseph Audio Perspective 2

(Anechoic frequency response plotted in red):

1743560727171.jpeg

In both speakers, you can see a bit of a rise in the upper frequencies around the same area peaking at 10k.

However, I found the Paradigm to sound obviously bright and definitely fatiguing for me to listen to. I really wanted to just leave after a while listening to them.

On the other hand my listening sessions of the Joseph speakers, both in the store and in my home, were distinguished by a distinct lack of listening fatigue. They were so smooth I could listen all day, which is what I found once I owned them.

So what’s the difference? I do like “airy highs” but I guess the peak on the Paradigms was just touch too aggressive for me.

On the other hand, I spent quite a while, listening to these at my friends house when he had them for a month or two:

Vivid Kaya

1743561097396.jpeg


I didn’t ultimately care for them. They were amazingly open, sounding and airy and detailed. But I found them too anti-septic, too mechanical, spot lighting things like vocal sibilance, and they lacked the richness I preferred.

I guess we can see the bass is flatter than the other two speakers so that probably plays into my impression.

And on the other hand, one of my favourite speakers are the Devore O/96, an old-school design.

Devore O/96

1743561429305.jpeg

I found those sounded both rich, thick, yet airy in the highs. That was consistent the many times I heard them in two different rooms.

I also listened to the Kii Audio Three speakers a number of times. And if ever a speaker sounded to me like it’s frequency response, it’s that one:

Kii Audio Three

1743561676164.jpeg

They sounded just like the above… which to my ears translated as generally very evenly balanced, if even slightly on the rich side, with a top end that sounded just a bit darker than life to me. Of course you can always EQ those speakers as you want. But I think the settings I heard would have matched the above.

In the end, I just find some intangibles that I cannot predict. I don’t necessarily see in the measurements of the Devore speakers that they would present the surprising sheer scale and heft of sound that they did from relatively small speakers. Nor the (to my ear) “organic” tonality that made voices and instruments sound authentic to me and not electronic.

Likewise, from the moment I heard them, the Joseph speakers grabbed me with a sound that was as pure and grain/hash free as I’ve ever heard. It was to me their distinguishing feature. And this feature has been noted over and over in reviews and among owners. And yet, except for perhaps a clean waterfall plot, I’m not sure what to attribute that to.

And then there’s all the issues of whatever biases I am bringing to listening.

So in the end, I can get certain ideas about speakers sound from the measurements, and even rule out certain speakers, but I can never predict for sure what speaker will absolutely grab me or leave me cold.
 
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Without polar pattern, the single on-axis FR measurements give an extremely incomplete picture for tonal balance.

That was all that was available (except for the Kii). I gave links to the full suite of Stereophile measurements for each speaker.

If it’s a full Klippel measurement that would be necessary, that would be a big part of the problem and answering the question that was posed to me - which was correlating measurements to what I seem to like in loudspeakers.

There aren’t such measurements for any loudspeaker I’ve ever owned, nor (excepting the Kii Audio) for any loudspeakers I have listened to or auditioned.

The loudspeakers on the market for which we have Klippel measurements are extremely limited to say the least. Many people don’t even have stores in their vicinity in which they can listen to many loudspeakers, let alone those that have published Klippel measurements. Even though I’m lucky to live in the city with a number of audio stores, I can’t think of any whose inventory includes speakers with available Klippel measurements (again except for the Kii Three).

So if I’m asked how I’d correlate speaker measurements to understand which speakers I like and don’t like, and if the requirements for that is having Klippel-level published measurements on which to judge, then this is clearly going to be deeply impractical if not simply impossible.

There are Stereophile measurements for many of the speakers I’ve listened to, and if those aren’t helpful, then I’m pretty much out of luck.
 
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