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Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...
- Thread starter Sgt. Ear Ache
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Bob from Florida
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Or the competing “DILLIGAF”.
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I don’t think Matt was saying that the Klippel itself is limiting, but rather its lack of widespread adoption.
Based on the way I read his post, I’d assume he agrees that full Klippel NFS datasets for every speaker would improve our ability to shop for the perfect speaker for us.
I remember hauling in my inexpensive Paisley Research speakers to the high-end dealer here in town decades ago to compare to their speakers (I believe they were a pair of Proac's) and even though the Proac's were smaller and much more expensive the salesman said he thought the Proac's sounded better. I disagreed based on the bass, mine produced deeper fuller bass but then I later learned that bass is something I just naturally listen for and others don't. This was subsequently taught to me ~3 decades later when I had a friend over and we were listening to my Audioengine A5+ speakers and he thought they sounded good but I wasn't so thrilled because they lack deep bass. Neither the salesman nor my friend have the ear for bass that I have but then I don't have the ear for midrange that they have even though that's where the overwhelming majority of the music lies. This also explains why some people used to think I was the antichrist when I used to set my equalizers to smile at me, because I wanted all the bass and treble I could get but midrange be damned!It's a manifesto!
Largely tongue-in-cheek, but there's an honest message buried in there. It is a bit of a jolt when you are confronted by the reality that you can't trust your own ears. But once you really accept it, it does kinda set you free. You can ignore a lot of BS and focus on what actually makes a difference.
One of the problems with the listening test we did at the high end audio shop was, he had us connect up my speakers and listen to them before disconnecting them and then connecting the Proac's and this is when I learned about anechoic memory and how incredibly short it can be so I think a better test would have been to A/B them instantly next to each other and walk around the room but that was a long time ago and we've learned a lot more about anechoic memory and room acoustics since then
The last time I was in that shop they had a pair of $55,000 B&W's on display which reminded me of the $60,000 pair of Focal's another dealer had down the road if only in price. The craziest thing is, neither pair are the TOTL line speaker system from either manufacturer
I have no interest in hearing either
MattHooper
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OMG
I may be misunderstanding your post but just out of curiosity, why would I want to listen to a system that DIDN’T sound good to me?
As one example, not all recordings sound silky smooth but if you chose to use components or speakers that make
them all sound that way, you'll never know what the recording was meant to sound like.
A High Fidelity system should be capable of being transparent to the source and not color everything to the owners preferences.
If that's what you chose to do, fine. But that's not Hi-Fi.
Stray too far from fidelity and only some recordings will sound good. If you choose only by ear that's where it ends up and your system starts dictating what music you can listen to. The cart starts pulling the horse.
That's why when you go to shows or the homes of 'serious audiophiles' they only want to play you Diana Krall and Yello on their boutique systems. No Sabbath or Lizzy.
Another angle: It’s not that you want a system that doesn’t sound good to you. The problem is with “sounds good to me” is that we are not very good at evaluating all the factors that make excellent SQ and need technical measurements to get an accurate picture. Why? Many reasons: hearing losses, hearing sensitivity, psychology, memory, the room, sources (which master, etc.). Perhaps biggest is we are unable to consistently compare what we are hearing at one moment to something “better”. Measurements provide a consistent - and multidimensional - reference point. Even speakers designers who do this every day for decades need Klippel etc. to provide an objective truth.
MattHooper
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This is where I often point out: the same goes for a neutral system. Due to the variability among recordings, some will sound good and others won’t sound good, so there’s no automatic advantage for neutrality in terms of argument.
And on the other hand, there have been people who moved to more accurate systems who have felt it started to limit the music they like on the system. Because now the recording quality differences were being more revealed. And they find themselves looking for good recordings.
So it can go both ways.
I know the point you mean to make there, but most audiophiles tend to choose equipment based on how it sounds with the music they like to listen to. If somebody’s in to sabbath or Lizzie, it’s more likely they would’ve selected a system that sounds good to them with that music.
Sure if the goal for an audiophile is “ I know my system is accurate” then all the above applies.
But if someone’s goal is “ I want what sounds good to me, how I perceive things, and I care about whether I find myself enjoying the music on my system or not” then it can make sense for somebody to just audition loudspeakers, and then they will be perceiving them with all the liabilities of their own hearing, personal biases, etc. which are the conditions under which they will be listening to the product.
Personally, I do care about measurements in certain respects. I want a neutral DAC (not hard to achieve), And I do pay attention to speaker measurements when they are available. There are certain types of “bad” measurements that would turn me off buying a speaker. But ultimately I use my own perception to decide which loudspeakers I will purchase, because in the end, how I perceived the sound is what I’m trying to satisfy. And I have been fine with a little bits of colouration here and there.
Even with "other than neutral" preferences it's better to have measurements as a reference than not. Let's say (like me) you like lots of bass and are indifferent to much over 15kHz. It's unlikely any listening room and who knows what speaker placement, amp, etc. is going to have LF just like mine. But I can instantly know from a spinorama if a particular speaker will have the potential for the bass profile and distortion level I'm looking for - and have the sensitivity for my amp to drive it. It would take a prodigious amount of critical listening at a show or showroom to match that level of understanding, if it's even feasible.
Just not been my experience at all. It isn't necessary for ruthless accuracy but somewhere inside the ballpark is necessary if you don't want to find recordings that should sound fine sounding poor or unlistenable. Mastering suites tend to be in the ballpark of neutral consequently it makes sense to keep within those parameters for playback.
Within that fairly broad area there's room for subjective 'tailoring of the sound' ...but:
I've had too many experiences of recordings that should sound good sounding terrible usually on some boutique system that's been taken too far into the audio twilight zone. Maybe if you just listen to very undemanding music I suppose then it doesn't matter but seriously what percentage of enthusiasts is that?
And after the ripping distortion nearly has you over the back of the chair, the people are saying 'Oh yes this recording is really bad quality.' - Nope. I was listening to it last week, it's fine, it's the system's that's a crock. You know eventually they will be selling it all on.
Nope, it can't go both ways like that.. Matt takes this position because he has chosen tube amps and uses vinyl for a large percentage of his listening so
he supports an anti-science sytem position.. A shame really because he has some really great speakers and if combined with a good solid state amp
and digital source it could offer some excellent accurate High Fidelity reproduction.
But you can "have it both ways" by starting with a very accurate package and then adding your preferred form of EQ or plug-in and even using a vinyl front end if the mood should hit you.
Just remember you can add any type of distortion if you chose, but you can never subtract what is already there.
Cheers
HalSF
Active Member
Equating the fact that someone chooses to listen to vinyl records and use tube amplification with "an anti-science system position" is a symptom of the digital-cult tendencies that sometimes crop up at ASR. It's a silly way to talk.
Obviously, making inaccurate claims about the sonic superiority of vinyl and tubes, by ignoring the noise and distortion and other limitations inherent in those audio technologies, *would be* anti-science misinformation. Despite the limitations of vinyl and tubes, however, they offer a level of high-fidelity reproduction that take millions of people deep into recorded music with aesthetic honesty, even if they don't offer the last word in measured accuracy.
Listening to music on vinyl and using tube amps is not a moral failure or a betrayal of science, as long as you don't try to spread myths about "warmth" or "analog purity" or related nonsense about how vinyl and tubes measure and sound.
No, it just means you no longer pursue a path to SOTA home music reproduction, that's your choice.
High fidelity (often shortened to hi-fi or, rarely, HiFi) is the high-quality reproduction of sound.[1] It is popular with audiophiles and home audio enthusiasts. Ideally, high-fidelity equipment has inaudible noise and distortion, and a flat (neutral, uncolored) frequency response within the human hearing range.[2]
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