Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Jim Taylor]

... and did lots of blind group listening tests at local dealers.

Excuse me, but could you please explain the protocols for "blind group listening tests"? Thank you.

Jim

 

[pablolie]

...
Yes, I am being deliberately stubborn, but that's because I won't accept that all subjective listening results are always wrong, which is often the message being thrust down people's throats in this thread in particular. ...

I haven't touched this topic, simply because this "I know what I hear" stuff is something that has been debunked hundreds of times when the testing is normalized. Try some of Archimagos tests.

You talk in absolutes I haven't seen anyone else use, yet then again you claim you are the exception that truly knows what they hear and hence the singular exception. I shall take that with a major pinch of salt, because it's been claimed and debunked before.

 

[bodhi]

It's just the same old "I know what I heard and I'm the exception of the rule so I really really know what I heard whereas some people might get it wrong (cloth ears, lack of experience, not good enough system jada Jada"

Boring.

 

[Ro808]

Nearly 600 pages of navel-gazing.

Fascinating.

 

[Ranster]

No one here believes any usb cable measures or sounds different from another. Dumb strawman argument to use here. No one here would defend any usb cable. Nothing electronic that measures well will make music sound like it comes from a tin can. Period. Go back to subjective fairyland.

WireWorld Platinum Starlight 8 Series USB 2.0 Terminated Cable A to B 1.0M

WireWorld - Platinum Starlight 8 USB2.0 A-B 1.0M Breakthrough sound quality made Wireworld Platinum Starlight USB audio cables an industry benchmark for a decade. Platinum Starlight 8 continues that tradition with solid silver conductors, elegant carbon fiber plugs, exclusive Uni-Path geometry...

partsconnexion.com

I like to live in fairyland. the land of experience and quality. Here is a $600 usb cable and this is the start of the search. So yes some argue cables matter and some cant possibly believe in something they didn't think possible. Me, personally, i have built interconnects from mundorf silver gold wire with rhodium coated XLR connections and i have to say, magnificent. I had heard of such thing but never would try it because of the money. then someone with the money said lets do this. i bet with an instrument these cables measure just like any other cables, scientifically that is!!!!! I just wish i could afford them for my system. After a long time passing since i've heard them i still miss them and dream of making my own, Oh how wish i had them. As a simple person i haven't lofy words to describe them but i must say absolutely crystal clear with the best sound of any cable I've heard. I cannot imagine if i did the crossovers and the speaker wires, then the signal path inside the amp. Well at some point we must say here is the limit i am willing to go and spend. Just because we haven't heard of or thought of something or wanted to spend the money to see, that doesn't mean there isn't sonic clarity, presence and depth beyond what could be measured and why would we take away value to their equipment or financial decisions because we haven't thought it to be so. I/m just saying ignorance isn't bliss is plain ignorant and hurtful to others

 

[Jim Taylor]

Besides if i want solid state sound i buy solid state equipment and if i like tube sound ...

There is no such thing as "solid state sound" or "tube sound". There are only amplifiers that are accurate (neutral) and those that are not.

You can make amplifiers that have characteristics that are below the threshold of human hearing by using either solid state and tube. If you want, you can also make unmitigated garbage using either solid state or tube. It's simply much more difficult to do the same thing to high standards with tubes that you can do with solid state ... and a helluva lot more expensive.

It is not uncommon for people who advocate non-neutral "sound" to find themselves in a revolving door of purchase, re-sale, re-purchase, re-sale again, ad infinitum. Non-neutral iterations have no reference to industry standards, whereas neutral iterations do. So circuits with a "sound" (non-neutral ones) represent a swamp in which few find solid ground.

If that's the game you wish to play, so be it. Your choice. But please ... don't play that game here and expect validation and vindication. This is not Audio Subjectivist Review, it's Audio Science Review.

Jim

 

[Ranster]

I’m not playing subjective anything. You cannot tell me that some people prefer cd compact disk rather than pressed LP albums big audience difference. Personally I like the digital sound most and I’m not in a whirlwind of buy this or buy that because it’s the next big thing or someone reviews it good or bad. There is no subjection there. Also I’m not looking for validation as others do. If I like something, I like it. If I don’t, I don’t. I don’t care what others say. So validation isn’t why I’m here. I’m here for open mindedness. I built several interconnect cables for an attorney friend of mine who wanted what I thought would sound the best. So after careful research and comparison reading I chose Mundorf silver gold wire for construction and Furutech rhodium plated connections. I didn’t think it would make a big difference. Well I was catapulted into another dimension of understanding that I don’t think many are capable of comprehending because it wouldn’t and didn’t measure any different on my oscilloscope. But to hear them was something to behold. And guess what. No one told me to believe that. I actually heard it. And on blind testing so did the client. I offered free of charge if he thought the generic store bought ones sounded better. Still others will be manipulated away from what is reality. Honestly if I hadn’t heard them I would never have believed it. I always thought they were “out there” in the twilight zone. I’m not advocating for anything but some things cannot be measured. Mundorf has made a remarkable product. I only wish I could afford my own. I would also suggest that different test measuring equipment isn’t all the same. All mediation isn’t the same. Many generic meds do not work the same as name brands. Not many, but some do not. If you measured all the same ingredients, well just like a very famous violin maker who people tried to imitate. People made them I in every way but they did not sound the same. the sound even measured all the same but audibly so so different. So I’m not looking for fights just open mind to what you may not expect or previously be able comprehend.

 

[Jim Taylor]

I was catapulted into another dimension of understanding that I don’t think many are capable of comprehending

Jim

 

[Ranster]

Okay okay I should have stated
I was catapulted into another dimension. A dimension of reality and understanding I never thought possible. If I hadn’t tried them and heard the difference I would not have been capable of believing. And that because I didn’t know what else was possible. Those I don’t think capable of understanding are the ones who have never heard them. Same as a person who lives on a social security disability check has a hard time believing what a 50 billion dollar a year income is like. Simple understanding here.

Anyway you have got to tell me what is the yellow thing. I feel inadequate but I really don’t know.
Maybe that’s what’s going on here. I haven’t heard numerous $100,000 systems and therefore I was surprised that a specific wire paired with a specific connector made a system sound so much better. My point is this it measured no differently. Again maybe it’s my cheap $300 oscilloscope but my ears and the other persons heard it. LOL even my wife heard the difference. So please don’t think I’m making fun of science but has science measured the soul yet. However we know it exists because the electrical energy that kept that body alive stops doing so. If energy can’t be created nor destroyed then that energy went somewhere and took the character or soul of that person with it. Also, why are Siamese twins so similar yet so different. Anyway science isn’t exact and we should always remember that.

 

[john2017]

in my opinion, and it is just that, science can only go so far. There needs to be room for subjective evaluation as well. Science cannot explain everything. There has been equipment reviewed on this very site that was never listened to outside of what could be heard on the workbench. There have been speakers reviewed with just one speaker instead of the stereo pair, or not set up to the manufacturer‘s suggestions, simply because the measurements taken did not look good on a scope.

Audio gear is not designed or made to be listened to on a test bench. The acoustics of the room, everything from the floors to the ceiling, the shape of the room, and everything within that space all play a part in what we hear. This is why millions of dollars are spent designing concert halls for their acoustic environment. Just like the instruments our audio systems are trying to reproduce, so to our gear reads the room and responds accordingly. How can this be measured on a workbench?

I have purchased gear based on specs alone, and much of that gear was returned because within my listening space, it sounded like crap. Other times, the built quality was very poor, regardless of the price point. I know this site worships at the altar of the scientific measurement, but science alone does not and cannot explain all about what and how we hear what we do. According to many on this forum, based on science alone, my system should sound like complete shit, but the facts are just the opposite of that. My stereo rig consists of a pair of home-built Carver Ravens, Simaudio Moon 680d DAC, McIntosh C2300 preamp, Oppo UDP-203 universal player and top range Audioquest cables, including WEL interconnects and Diamond USB cables, feeding a pair of Polk Audio Legend L800’s.This setup started off with some of the components that came highly recommended on this site, but in my home and to what matters most, my ears, they failed to engage me with music in the manner the artists and performers intended. Measurements alone tend to suck the soul out of the sound. Each of the components in my rig delivers a piece of that, and combined as a whole, the illusion of a solo performance just for you is delivered every time I sit down to listen.

I have observed some talk on this forum that ASR may become the target of a lawsuit or two… I do know that at the most recent audio meet, ASR was the talk of the show among vendors and the many companies who’s gear that were at the event. I sense that some form of suit is coming. An example reason as to why would be that a certain piece of gear that receives accolades from around the world for whatever reason comes to these pages for a review, where it is summarily trashed, with testing methods that are not in any way used by the makers of said product. It goes on to be proclaimed a “headless panther”(how mature does that sound anyway). Over time the sales of that product are severely affected, dwindling to a halt. Many big companies can take a fail or two, but others are not built that way, and such damage can actually harm the business.

ASR is likely the primary reason the Bob Carver Company was forced to close their doors. The damage done to the company and to Bob‘s reputation by this site is nothing short of astonishing. Carver is not the only company harmed by the manner in which ASR conducts their reviews. I will not name any other brands that have been harmed, but there are perhaps a dozen or so looking to work together to stop what happens here. Cease and desist letters are being drawn up. Some are looking to bring slander suits, and other looking at other avenues to peruse on their own.

I like the community here and believe there is a benefit ASR and its continued existence, however, I strongly suggest that reviewing of equipment change in such a way as to allow a manufacturer to see pre-published results and address them in some manner before publication. With regards to Carver and the ubiquitous 275 fiasco, a simple phone call or two would have revealed that the new ownership was acutely aware there was an issue, that it was being addressed, and that the procedures used to test the amp were not correct to start with. While it would not have improved the results much, it would have tested a bit better, and ASR would have been informed that the fix was coming and the company actually cared about doing better going forward. This could have been highlighted within the review and much of the vitriol that followed could have been mitigated. Such a step would eliminate the potential for possible consequences that can result from a legal perspective, and in this case, could have possibly created enough good will between Carver and ASR that the company could have survived.

Another point… it is one thing to discuss a poorly reviewed piece of equipment, and entirety something else to go on a campaign of character assassination. Rules should be put in place to confine discourse to the specific piece of gear, and not pass judgments on the character of the man that built it, or the company itself. To do so is BEGGING to be sued. Remember guys, this is only a hobby. It is not something for which there is only one right way of doing things. Even brain surgeons are more flexible in their views than this place tends to be. Can we all just lighten up and enjoy the music, while helping each other, scientifically and objectively?

 

[Chrispy]

"Same as a person who lives on a social security disability check has a hard time believing what a 50 billion dollar a year income is like. Simple understanding here."

That is an impressive comment but am on probation....

 

[Chrispy]

in my opinion, and it is just that, science can only go so far. There needs to be room for subjective evaluation as well. Science cannot explain everything. There has been equipment reviewed on this very site that was never listened to outside of what could be heard on the workbench. There have been speakers reviewed with just one speaker instead of the stereo pair, or not set up to the manufacturer‘s suggestions, simply because the measurements taken did not look good on a scope.

Audio gear is not designed or made to be listened to on a test bench. The acoustics of the room, everything from the floors to the ceiling, the shape of the room, and everything within that space all play a part in what we hear. This is why millions of dollars are spent designing concert halls for their acoustic environment. Just like the instruments our audio systems are trying to reproduce, so to our gear reads the room and responds accordingly. How can this be measured on a workbench?

I have purchased gear based on specs alone, and much of that gear was returned because within my listening space, it sounded like crap. Other times, the built quality was very poor, regardless of the price point. I know this site worships at the altar of the scientific measurement, but science alone does not and cannot explain all about what and how we hear what we do. According to many on this forum, based on science alone, my system should sound like complete shit, but the facts are just the opposite of that. My stereo rig consists of a pair of home-built Carver Ravens, Simaudio Moon 680d DAC, McIntosh C2300 preamp, Oppo UDP-203 universal player and top range Audioquest cables, including WEL interconnects and Diamond USB cables, feeding a pair of Polk Audio Legend L800’s.This setup started off with some of the components that came highly recommended on this site, but in my home and to what matters most, they failed to engage me with music in the manner the artists and performers intended. Measurements alone tend to suck the soul out of the sound. Each of the components in my rig delivers a piece of that, and combined as a whole, the illusion of a solo performance just for you is delivered every time I sit down to listen.

I have observed some talk on this forum that ASR may become the target of a lawsuit or two… I do know that at the most recent audio meet, ASR was the talk of the show among vendors and the many companies who’s gear that were at the event. I sense that some form of suit is coming. An example reason as to why would be that a certain piece of gear that receives accolades from around the world for whatever reason comes to these pages for a review, where it is summarily trashed, with testing methods that are not in any way used by the makers of said product. It goes on to be proclaimed a “headless panther”(how mature does that sound anyway). Over time the sales of that product are severely affected, dwindling to a halt. Many big companies can take a fail or two, but others are not built that way, and such damage can actually harm the business.

ASR is likely the primary reason the Bob Carver Company was forced to close their doors. The damage done to the company and to Bob‘s reputation by this site is nothing short of astonishing. Carver is not the only company harmed by the manner in which ASR conducts their reviews. I will not name any other brands that have been harmed, but there are perhaps a dozen or so looking to work together to stop what happens here. Cease and desist letters are being drawn up. Some are looking to bring slander suits, and other looking at other avenues to peruse on their own.

I like the community here and believe there is a benefit ASR and its continued existence, however, I strongly suggest that reviewing of equipment change in such a way as to allow a manufacturer to see pre-published results and address them in some manner before publication. With regards to Carver and the ubiquitous 275 fiasco, a simple phone call or two would have revealed that the new ownership was acutely aware there was an issue, that it was being addressed, and that the procedures used to test the amp were not correct to start with. While it would not have improved the results much, it would have tested a bit better, and ASR would have been informed that the fix was coming and the company actually cared about doing better going forward. This could have been highlighted within the review and much of the vitriol that followed could have been mitigated. Such a step would eliminate the potential for possible consequences that can result from a legal perspective, and in this case, could have possibly created enough good will between Carver and ASR that the company could have survived.

Another point… it is one thing to discuss a poorly reviewed piece of equipment, and entirety something else to go on a campaign of character assassination. Rules should be put in place to confine discourse to the specific piece of gear, and not pass judgments on the character of the man that built it, or the company itself. To do so is BEGGING to be sued. Remember guys, this is only a hobby. It is not something for which there is only one right way of doing things. Even brain surgeons are more flexible in their views than this place tends to be. Can we all just lighten up and enjoy the music, while helping each other, scientifically and objectively?

Horseshit on the ASR comment personally. Just lots of bullshit with the various Carver companies largely due lack of consistency among such.

 

[Gringoaudio1]

Send in the clowns…
Science is amazingly accurate. That we can build particle accelerators like CERN shows to what incredibly fine precision science operates at. Just one example. My father is a nuclear physicist and engineer and designed parts of a huge particle accelerator. He and his colleagues are so far above the average person in smarts and knowledge. The subjective clowns that show up here are so ignorant that they don’t even know how much they don’t know. Just pathetic that we even entertain them. Let’s have some standards for admission. Having more members doesn’t add revenue or anything to sustain the site. Keep the fools out.

 

[john2017]

Send in the clowns…
Science is amazingly accurate. That we can build particle accelerators like CERN shows to what incredibly fine precision science operates at. Just one example. My father is a nuclear physicist and engineer and designed parts of a huge particle accelerator. He and his colleagues are so far above the average person in smarts and knowledge. The subjective clowns that show up here are so ignorant that they don’t even know how much they don’t know.….

What does your dad being a nuclear physicist have to do with audio? What does CERN have to do with audio? Yes, science is amazing, and accurate for a vast number things, but what science knows today can and will change entirely tomorrow as new discoveries are made. In just the past several months, science has become increasingly clear that the long held beliefs on how the universe was formed may actually be completely wrong, but that also has nothing whatsoever to do with audio.

i am not a complete subjectivist. Quite the contrary. I let measurements be a guide of sorts, then let my ears decide the rest. If that fits your definition of a “clown”, so be it. The only ignorant people I have ever met are ones that lack an open mind.

 

[BDWoody]

A few more just got moved in...

 

[BDWoody]

I like to live in fairyland.

That's ok, many people came from that environment where ignorance is expected.

It's different here. Evidence is King. Not the best story.

 

[Jim Taylor]

The only ignorant people I have ever met are ones that lack an open mind.

Keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out.

i am not a complete subjectivist. Quite the contrary. I let measurements be a guide of sorts, then let my ears decide the rest.

This is the very essence of subjectivism. It's as if you said, "I'm going to build an interplanetary rocket. I'll let measurements be a guide of sorts, but let my eyes decide the rest."

Really? I mean ... really?

Jim

 

[BDWoody]

I will not name any other brands that have been harmed, but there are perhaps a dozen or so looking to work together to stop what happens here. Cease and desist letters are being drawn up. Some are looking to bring slander suits, and other looking at other avenues to peruse on their own.

That would be fun to listen in on...

I'm sure they are upset, since their golden goose is slowly being plucked, but maybe they could stop saying such absolutely silly things.

Butthurt isn't actionable.

 

[Jim Taylor]

What does CERN have to do with audio?

... but that also has nothing whatsoever to do with audio.

CERN (and science in general) are examples of precision ... precision in thinking and precision engineering. Precision engineering is based on science. It's not based on opinion and not based on emotion.

Audio is also based on science. The recording process, refined over decades by scientists and engineers, gives us recordings. Those recordings can be played back on well-engineered equipment, based on known scientific principles, and we can hear a fairly accurate re-creation of the original performance.

So yes, science has everything to do with audio, and audio depends on science.

The emotion comes into play with the LISTENING.

Jim

 

[solderdude]

Het is dweilen met de kraan open

(It is like mopping the floor with the faucet still running)