Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Killingbeans]

Why do some of you think there are so many different chips on the market, and power supplies, and filters, and R2R DACs, if a DAC doesn't affect the sound of one's stack?

That's the thing. We have no doubt that it affects the sound of your stack. Only, we have good reason to suspect that it solely does so through the power of suggestion.

Same experience. Different cause.

Clocks, isolation of outputs, quality of circuit boards, power supplies all play a part in the quality of the product and therefore quality of sound.

An improvement only affects the "quality of sound" if it makes changes with an amplitude that human hearing can detect.

At some point only measuring instruments can appreciate the difference. Human hearing does not have infinite capabilities. Especially not when you factor in masking effects.

 

[MattHooper]

Ugh. I just hurt my brain.

I looked at an audiophile web site (the guy was promoting himself on another site) and it represented all the pseudo-scientific down-the-rabbit-hole thinking that makes everyone laugh at audiophiles.

I've never seen such a loving fetish of expensive audio cables in my life as on that channel! It is just bizarre.

And the dude (in his video on audio reviews), to no surprise, downplayed measurements including what seemed a snipe at ASR. To paraphrase he was saying Measurements can't tell you how something, even a speaker sounds. You can't tell a speaker's tone from the frequency response...

Which is always best translated in to "I personally don't understand measurements so I can't tell how a speaker might sound from measurements." So often technically naive audiophiles project their own ignorance as "what is known" in fields like science or engineering.

He also said "So...don't try to correlate measurements to how something will sound!"

Head. Sand. Insert.

(Not gonna link to the site, just getting that gripe off my chest).

 

[Astoneroad]

Ugh. I just hurt my brain.
He also said "So...don't try to correlate measurements to how something will sound!"
Head. Sand. Insert.

Fill 'er up... Mister?

 

[MattHooper]

Ugh. I just hurt my brain.

I looked at an audiophile web site (the guy was promoting himself on another site) and it represented all the pseudo-scientific down-the-rabbit-hole thinking that makes everyone laugh at audiophiles.

I've never seen such a loving fetish of expensive audio cables in my life as on that channel! It is just bizarre.

And the dude (in his video on audio reviews), to no surprise, downplayed measurements including what seemed a snipe at ASR. To paraphrase he was saying Measurements can't tell you how something, even a speaker sounds. You can't tell a speaker's tone from the frequency response...

Which is always best translated in to "I personally don't understand measurements so I can't tell how a speaker might sound from measurements." So often technically naive audiophiles project their own ignorance as "what is known" in fields like science or engineering.

He also said "So...don't try to correlate measurements to how something will sound!"

Head. Sand. Insert.

(Not gonna link to the site, just getting that gripe off my chest).

I was stupid enough to address some of this fellow's claims, pointing out aspects I appreciated in his videos, and some of the statements like the above I had trouble with.

I was rewarded with his response, essentially: LOL, didn't read, you wasted your time writing that!

His videos and forum demeanor should have been a tip off that type of response was coming. But, as always, it was worth posting for other less close minded memebers who may be reading such threads.

 

[Newman]

The Audioostrichophile

 

[bodhi]

His videos and forum demeanor should have been a tip off that type of response was coming. But, as always, it was worth posting for other less close minded memebers who may be reading such threads.

You just ventured into an echo chamber. The idea of the place is for like minded people to hear others agree, you could think of it as their "safe place".

What is usually true is that most members don't fully agree with the groupmind, but they keep that to themselves as the disagreements are minor. Long time members create, understand and enforce what are the boundaries inside which discussion can go on. Go outside them and you are attacked with fury in hopes of driving away the discord. This usually works well, as it's not fun for challenger to stand up against many, sometimes dozens of ad hominems where other "debaters" don't even read the arguments.

It is not said out loud, but between the lines you can read "why are you babbling about inconsequential things, we are happy with our own thing here, why are you stirring shit?"

Problems arise when the same people venture into forums that don't have the same groupthink. What happens is what you see in this thread: people are first amazed and confused at why people are not agreeing "why are you dissecting my arguments like a surgeon when it's the idea that counts?" Then they get angry, yell "cult" and go back to their safe place telling war stories about the weirdos in forum X.

It's fine to people to have these safe places. It's sad when sometimes these places are formed inside forums that usually have been about somewhat logical debates. It starts small, starts slow but it can easily devour entire forum. Very interesting and fascinating human behavior.

 

[MattHooper]

You just ventured into an echo chamber. The idea of the place is for like minded people to hear others agree, you could think of it as their "safe place".

What is usually true is that most members don't fully agree with the groupmind, but they keep that to themselves as the disagreements are minor. Long time members create, understand and enforce what are the boundaries inside which discussion can go on. Go outside them and you are attacked with fury in hopes of driving away the discord. This usually works well, as it's not fun for challenger to stand up against many, sometimes dozens of ad hominems where other "debaters" don't even read the arguments.

It is not said out loud, but between the lines you can read "why are you babbling about inconsequential things, we are happy with our own thing here, why are you stirring shit?"

Problems arise when the same people venture into forums that don't have the same groupthink. What happens is what you see in this thread: people are first amazed and confused at why people are not agreeing "why are you dissecting my arguments like a surgeon when it's the idea that counts?" Then they get angry, yell "cult" and go back to their safe place telling war stories about the weirdos in forum X.

It's fine to people to have these safe places. It's sad when sometimes these places are formed inside forums that usually have been about somewhat logical debates. It starts small, starts slow but it can easily devour entire forum. Very interesting and fascinating human behavior.

Indeedy.

I've long had an interest in weird beliefs and belief systems, including cults.* The first reaction is always astonishment at "how could anyone believe these things?" But it turns out there's a million-and-one ways to red pill yourself (or others), a way of introducing a bias that makes your belief unfalsifiable. Once you adopt such standards almost anything can be justified (because you have a way of ignoring contradictory evidence).

Being a skeptically-minded atheist, the resemblance to Religion/New Age/Spiritual beliefs that came to invade the high end audio hobby has always bothered me. Though I'm sure there are forms of that in plenty of other hobbies too.

*(There are a number of podcasts about cults and cult thinking. I'm currently listening to a particularly excellent one featuring two ex cult members who have insights in to how cult-thinking works, which they apply to current cultural/news events. It's called Conspirituality).

 

[MattHooper]

BTW, related to one of my comments above:

For those of you with other hobbies: do you see a similar divide between "objectivist/subjectivist" in any of those hobbies? Or some similar strain of enthusiasts who go in for pseudoscientific thinking as it relates to the hobby?

I'm aware that every hobby has it's clashes, and apparently even hobbies like biking or photography/cameras can have enthusiasts clashing. But I don't know the nature of
those disagreements and wonder if they mirror what we see in high end audio.

 

[IPunchCholla]

BTW, related to one of my comments above:

For those of you with other hobbies: do you see a similar divide between "objectivist/subjectivist" in any of those hobbies? Or some similar strain of enthusiasts who go in for pseudoscientific thinking as it relates to the hobby?

I'm aware that every hobby has it's clashes, and apparently even hobbies like biking or photography/cameras can have enthusiasts clashing. But I don't know the nature of
those disagreements and wonder if they mirror what we see in high end audio.

I really don’t see the same level of woo in the one other hobby i visit forums about.

Mountain biking has its advocates towards differing frame materials, suspension layouts, bike geometry, wheel sizes, etc. But most of the debate is focused on facts. It’s just peoples’ skills, goals, and preferences differ so there is endless discussion about the trade offs of one setup vs another In context of skills, fitness, terrain, etc.

I used to hang out on a watch forum. The woo there was mostly about the craftsmanship, design engineering, etc. People weren’t selling add ones that somehow made your ETA based mechanical tell better time. Although winders and the like were sold as being good for your pieces time-keeping long term without much evidence.

 

[Killingbeans]

For those of you with other hobbies: do you see a similar divide between "objectivist/subjectivist" in any of those hobbies? Or some similar strain of enthusiasts who go in for pseudoscientific thinking as it relates to the hobby?

Not really. DIY electronics hacking/making, 3D printers and old video games. Lots of different personal tastes and design approaches, but hardly any woo.

The biggest difference probably comes from the involvement of music. Makes it impossible for people to keep emotions and feelings out of it.

 

[Timcognito]

I think all hobbies have these debates. As life long woodworker and amateur carpenter I read about objective testing all kinds of power and hand tools, finishes, insulation performance, corrosion testing and such. The same with boat builders, and car enthusiasts etc. The fundamental issue at ASR by some on the outside is do the measurements match audibility. I think where possible it would be good if Amir's test graphs would have lines or progressive shading for audibility for distortion, SINAD and such where possible based on published and reviewed testing. That might end some debate and rancor.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I think all hobbies have these debates. As life long woodworker and amateur carpenter I read about objective testing all kinds of power and hand tools, finishes, insulation performance, corrosion testing and such. The same with boat builders, and car enthusiasts etc. The fundamental issue at ASR by some on the outside is do the measurements match audibility. I think where possible it would be good if Amir's test graphs would have lines or progressive shading for audibility for distortion, SINAD and such where possible based on published and reviewed testing. That might end some debate and rancor.

+1 on the shading of graphs idea.

 

[LightninBoy]

BTW, related to one of my comments above:

For those of you with other hobbies: do you see a similar divide between "objectivist/subjectivist" in any of those hobbies? Or some similar strain of enthusiasts who go in for pseudoscientific thinking as it relates to the hobby?

I'm aware that every hobby has it's clashes, and apparently even hobbies like biking or photography/cameras can have enthusiasts clashing. But I don't know the nature of
those disagreements and wonder if they mirror what we see in high end audio.

I've made this point a few times ... in my experience hifi is unique in its high level of subjectivity accepted in the equipment. Other hobbies I dabble in: video / HT, music recording, playing guitar, building computers, adult pinewood derby (don't ask).

Of these, the only hobbies that even approach the subjectivity in hifi is the music recording and guitar hobbies. Interesting that they all revolve around music. Wander into an electric guitar forum, mention "tone wood", then sit back with a bucket of popcorn to watch the resulting show. On the other hand, I just built a gaming computer and the amount of objective information available, and the network of component reviewers and their willingness to critique bad components is just a different universe compared to hifi.

I have a theory that competition plays an important role here. If the hobby hosts competitive events, even if winning is a subjective judgement, these tend to weed out the woo faster than otherwise.

 

[ahofer]

I've made this point a few times ... in my experience hifi is unique in its high level of subjectivity accepted in the equipment. Other hobbies I dabble in: video / HT, music recording, playing guitar, building computers, adult pinewood derby (don't ask).

Of these, the only hobbies that even approach the subjectivity in hifi is the music recording and guitar hobbies. Interesting that they all revolve around music. Wander into an electric guitar forum, mention "tone wood", then sit back with a bucket of popcorn to watch the resulting show. On the other hand, I just built a gaming computer and the amount of objective information available, and the network of component reviewers and their willingness to critique bad components is just a different universe compared to hifi.

I have a theory that competition plays an important role here. If the hobby hosts competitive events, even if winning is a subjective judgement, these tend to weed out the woo faster than otherwise.

Yeah, guitars. I mean, if you want a classic single-coil or humbucker sound, a lot of inexpensive guitars can do it. But people will argue endlessly about subtleties (or nonexistent differences). In that case it's not only music, but how it feels as you play it - which is important. Of course getting your axe properly set up helps an awful lot with that - it's sort of the room EQ of guitars.

 

[RayDunzl]

For those of you with other hobbies: do you see a similar divide between "objectivist/subjectivist" in any of those hobbies?

My other hobby is "up in the air".

There are performance differences between different planes, as there are performance diferences between different sets of audio gear.

Some hobbies require more in the way of some skill in addition to equipment performance.

I would think audio is on the lower skill level (after initial setup, at least).

In my hobby (Soaring) the highest performance glider flown poorly probably won't match the results of the most pedestrian plane flown well.

The main difference I see in them is the ability to go faster with less altitude loss

There would surely be analogs in any hobby requiring some physical or mental action to make it work. "Listening" is a rather passive activity, in my mind.

 

[Newman]

But it turns out there's a million-and-one ways to red pill yourself (or others), a way of introducing a bias that makes your belief unfalsifiable.

That would be to ‘blue pill’ yourself.

 

[widemediaphotography]

Speaking of measurements... Today the outside temperature was around 38 degrees and I got home and I still had a warm sensation. So I took my professional infrared thermometer with laser pointer and started measuring the temperature of the walls. I measured an average temperature of 26 degrees. So I turned on a fan coil, which only moves air, and I immediately had a real cool sensation. I measured the temperatures around the fan coil. Nothing always 26 degrees! Then I turned on my stereo and looped Within by Daft Punk and had 3 drinks. After the third drink the music felt much softer, yet the eardrums of my ears are sure they vibrated the same way they did when I was sober...

 

[Axo1989]

You just ventured into an echo chamber. The idea of the place is for like minded people to hear others agree, you could think of it as their "safe place".

What is usually true is that most members don't fully agree with the groupmind, but they keep that to themselves as the disagreements are minor. Long time members create, understand and enforce what are the boundaries inside which discussion can go on. Go outside them and you are attacked with fury in hopes of driving away the discord. This usually works well, as it's not fun for challenger to stand up against many, sometimes dozens of ad hominems where other "debaters" don't even read the arguments.

It is not said out loud, but between the lines you can read "why are you babbling about inconsequential things, we are happy with our own thing here, why are you stirring shit?"

Problems arise when the same people venture into forums that don't have the same groupthink. What happens is what you see in this thread: people are first amazed and confused at why people are not agreeing "why are you dissecting my arguments like a surgeon when it's the idea that counts?" Then they get angry, yell "cult" and go back to their safe place telling war stories about the weirdos in forum X.

It's fine to people to have these safe places. It's sad when sometimes these places are formed inside forums that usually have been about somewhat logical debates. It starts small, starts slow but it can easily devour entire forum. Very interesting and fascinating human behavior.

Pretty much.

For example, try starting an LGBTQIA+ artists/music thread here and watch some "long time members" disgrace themselves. Before they erase themselves.

We all have our blind spots.

 

[widemediaphotography]

Speaking of measurements... Today the outside temperature was around 38 degrees and I got home and I still had a warm sensation. So I took my professional infrared thermometer with laser pointer and started measuring the temperature of the walls. I measured an average temperature of 26 degrees. So I turned on a fan coil, which only moves air, and I immediately had a real cool sensation. I measured the temperatures around the fan coil. Nothing always 26 degrees! Then I turned on my stereo and looped Within by Daft Punk and had 3 drinks. After the third drink the music felt much softer, yet the eardrums of my ears are sure they vibrated the same way they did when I was sober...

So I wanted to look into the matter... I blindfolded my wife and had her do the double-blind test by asking her if she preferred to rest her face on the marble cladding of the bathroom or on the velvet sofa. 10 times out of 10 she preferred to put his face on the marble cladding in the bathroom and not on the sofa. It is useless to repeat that the temperature of the sofa and the wall were exactly the same at 26.1°C... other face of psychoacoustics

 

[pkane]

So I wanted to look into the matter... I blindfolded my wife and had her do the double-blind test by asking her if she preferred to rest her face on the marble cladding of the bathroom or on the velvet sofa. 10 times out of 10 she preferred to put his face on the marble cladding in the bathroom and not on the sofa. It is useless to repeat that the temperature of the sofa and the wall were exactly the same at 26.1°C... other face of psychoacoustics

You're learning! But not quite there yet: that was a single-blind test. Now, blindfold yourself, and ask your wife to repeat the test another 10-15 times. Let's see if you can discover a statistically significant preference for a specific body part to be kicked by her. That's how real SCIENCE is done!