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Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

Killingbeans

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I say to demonstrate, to those who are able to do it, that an audio pc (low noise audio grade linear power supply, fanless, USB reclocker and USB filters) is perfectly useless compared to any other PC when playing a file with a somewhat perfect player of any nature, and regardless of the audio chain!

I assume you own such an "audio PC", since you keep bringing it up?

And you want us to prove that it can't be audibly superior in any scenario whatsoever? How is that productive in any way?

If I claimed that the dodo wasn't extinct and demanded that you should look in every nook and cranny of the globe, to see if you could find one hiding, wouldn't that be an absolutely pointless exercise?

There's always a worst case scenario. But if you have problems with EMI or ground loops, an "audio PC" isn't the answer. Just move the sources of EMI away from the gear that's sensitive to it and use galvanic isolation when needed. Problem solved. If the gear is still audibly affected by these problems after you took the most logical steps to mitigate them, it's probably just really badly designed, and you'd be better off replacing it with something well designed, rather than throwing money at a so called "audio PC".
 
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I assume you own such an "audio PC", since you keep bringing it up?

And you want us to prove that it can't be audibly superior in any scenario whatsoever? How is that productive in any way?

If I claimed that the dodo wasn't extinct and demanded that you should look in every nook and cranny of the globe, to see if you could find one hiding, wouldn't that be an absolutely pointless exercise?

There's always a worst case scenario. But if you have problems with EMI or ground loops, an "audio PC" isn't the answer. Just move the sources of EMI away from the gear that's sensitive to it and use galvanic isolation when needed. Problem solved. If the gear is still audibly affected by these problems after you took the most logical steps to mitigate them, it's probably just really badly designed, and you'd be better off replacing it with something well designed, rather than throwing money at a so called "audio PC".
In this forum there are scientists, Gurus who claim that it is perfectly useless in an audio chain, even of several tens of thousands of dollars, to use a dedicated audio PC rather than any PC... Are we talking about people who objectify their statements with a lot of measurements, because here we are talking about measurements, or have I misunderstood?
 

Geert

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When we say, for example, that all PCs resolve the same high resolution file equally, when run from a "bit perfect etc" player, we should somehow be able to measure and demonstrate that this is always true, regardless of EMI exposure level or power quality.

Actually we shouldn't. Exceptions prove the rule. If you know of an exception then please elaborate, and show us how relevant it is for the general population.
 

Dimitrov

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What are your guys thoughts on system synergy in audio? Is it just woo woo, in the minds of the listener, or are there objective scientific explanations that support the idea?

For instance, there is lots of controversy over cable sound in high end audio. Suppose they shouldn't effect the sound. However, the narrative or anecdotal evidence about a particular cable brand is consistent. I have tried to establish if this narrative is linked to a marketing effort but don't see such a direct link. (the brand name is irrelevant as it would detract from what I hope to illustrate) Could the cable construction in some way create this consistent impression by many of the cables within this brand?

What otherwise could phenomenon could explain why people often report hearing similar things after listening to the same cable?
 

pkane

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In this forum there are scientists, Gurus who claim that it is perfectly useless in an audio chain, even of several tens of thousands of dollars, to use a dedicated audio PC rather than any PC... Are we talking about people who objectify their statements with a lot of measurements, because here we are talking about measurements, or have I misunderstood?

Are you just making this up, or do you have a specific post by a "Guru" that you can link to that says that dedicated audio PC "is perfectly useless in an audio chain"?

It is certainly an overkill if all you're trying to do is to add some electrical isolation. This has been pointed out at least a few dozen times in this thread, including in answers to your posts. In fact, a dedicated PC may not even solve the noise problem, while an optical isolator most certainly will.

On the other hand, form factor, look and feel, mechanical noise and heat generation can all be valid considerations. Why wouldn't they be?
 

Purité Audio

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What are your guys thoughts on system synergy in audio? Is it just woo woo, in the minds of the listener, or are there objective scientific explanations that support the idea?

For instance, there is lots of controversy over cable sound in high end audio. Suppose they shouldn't effect the sound. However, the narrative or anecdotal evidence about a particular cable brand is consistent. I have tried to establish if this narrative is linked to a marketing effort but don't see such a direct link. (the brand name is irrelevant as it would detract from what I hope to illustrate) Could the cable construction in some way create this consistent impression by many of the cables within this brand?

What otherwise could phenomenon could explain why people often report hearing similar things after listening to the same cable?
Pure anecdote which is parroted and repeated ad nauseam
Keith
 

antcollinet

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What are your guys thoughts on system synergy in audio? Is it just woo woo, in the minds of the listener, or are there objective scientific explanations that support the idea?

For instance, there is lots of controversy over cable sound in high end audio. Suppose they shouldn't effect the sound. However, the narrative or anecdotal evidence about a particular cable brand is consistent. I have tried to establish if this narrative is linked to a marketing effort but don't see such a direct link. (the brand name is irrelevant as it would detract from what I hope to illustrate) Could the cable construction in some way create this consistent impression by many of the cables within this brand?

What otherwise could phenomenon could explain why people often report hearing similar things after listening to the same cable?

Cables do NOT impact the sound once they have been constructed to a bare minimum of requirements.

See the post I wrote here:

It was about the way people describe the sound of DACs - but it applies equally to cables.
 

Dimitrov

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Cables do NOT impact the sound once they have been constructed to a bare minimum of requirements.

See the post I wrote here:

It was about the way people describe the sound of DACs - but it applies equally to cables.
Okay, but what I'm wondering is these anecdotal reports - if you go to enough audiophile forums and analyse the subjective findings from people regarding a particular cable and their findings gel or are consistent with one another, what does mean?

What phenomenon is at play here? If it's within the mind of the listener I can accept that, but the same or consistent story amongst several people?
 

Purité Audio

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Okay, but what I'm wondering is these anecdotal reports - if you go to enough audiophile forums and analyse the subjective findings from people regarding a particular cable and their findings gel or are consistent with one another, what does mean?

What phenomenon is at play here? If it's within the mind of the listener I can accept that, but the same or consistent story amongst several people?
Mass hysteria
Keith
 

Jimbob54

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Okay, but what I'm wondering is these anecdotal reports - if you go to enough audiophile forums and analyse the subjective findings from people regarding a particular cable and their findings gel or are consistent with one another, what does mean?

What phenomenon is at play here? If it's within the mind of the listener I can accept that, but the same or consistent story amongst several people?
You'll probably find forums littered with consistent sightings of Elvis.
 

HarmonicTHD

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Okay, but what I'm wondering is these anecdotal reports - if you go to enough audiophile forums and analyse the subjective findings from people regarding a particular cable and their findings gel or are consistent with one another, what does mean?

What phenomenon is at play here? If it's within the mind of the listener I can accept that, but the same or consistent story amongst several people?
People just repeat after their peers as they want confirmation that their outrageous spending on a piece of copper indeed has an affect whereas all the physics say that it doesn’t and they have just been taken for a ride. Plus people posting different facts on these forums usually get banned and their posts deleted as it is not suitable to the business model … so even your eyeball statistics are heavily skewed.
 
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I cavi NON influiscono sul suono una volta che sono stati costruiti al minimo indispensabile.

I completely agree with you. 100% share. A common digital SAT cable with two honest RCA connectors carries the same signal as a $1000 hi-end cable, while there is no valid reason to use a toslink connection on 2 meters of digital connection!
 

Geert

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if you go to enough audiophile forums and analyse the subjective findings from people regarding a particular cable and their findings gel or are consistent with one another, what does mean?

99% of audiophile upgrades, being it cables, DAC's, amplifiers or whatever, "lower the noise floor" and "create blacker backgrounds". Now what does that mean? And when you combine multiple of these upgrades, is there a risk of creating a black hole that could swallow everything?
 

antcollinet

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Okay, but what I'm wondering is these anecdotal reports - if you go to enough audiophile forums and analyse the subjective findings from people regarding a particular cable and their findings gel or are consistent with one another, what does mean?

What phenomenon is at play here? If it's within the mind of the listener I can accept that, but the same or consistent story amongst several people?
As I point out in that post. Chat GPT will come out with the same type of descriptions. That does not mean Chat GPT has listened to them and independently reached the same conclusion, it is because it is like the audiophiles who buy these things who are biased by everything they read in marketing - and more importantly in the online audio echo chambers. Chat GPT has read (been trained on) the same stuff.

Or do you think none of them have read the impressions from other buyers of the same cables and/or of reviewers and/or marketing guff before they purchased.
 

fpitas

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Okay, but what I'm wondering is these anecdotal reports - if you go to enough audiophile forums and analyse the subjective findings from people regarding a particular cable and their findings gel or are consistent with one another, what does mean?

What phenomenon is at play here? If it's within the mind of the listener I can accept that, but the same or consistent story amongst several people?
I'll mention the UFO reports from various people. I sincerely doubt aliens, if they exist, have a keen interest in anal probing.
 

JustJones

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I use an Intel NUC running ROCK and a pi4 endpoint which set me back a few hundred dollars. This is my dedicated audio computer and it handles any EQ I use easily, whether one which cost several tens of thousands of dollars would be an improvement I couldn't say though I doubt I would hear any improvement.
 

HarmonicTHD

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I'll mention the UFO reports from various people. I sincerely doubt aliens, if they exist, have a keen interest in anal probing.
Yeah. You travel million of light years for a…p…. Must be extraordinarily special here on earth.
 
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antcollinet

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I'll mention the UFO reports from various people. I sincerely doubt aliens, if they exist, have a keen interest in anal probing.
snort!

EDIT : - and if anyone knows differently, please tell me where to find them :p
 
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JustJones

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You know if we ever get to another planet the first thing we'll do is probe various orifices of the indigenous species. It's a universal thing.
 
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