Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[theREALdotnet]

Maybe the change needed is to measure components like they are a green box.

Amir doesn't measure for SMR............ signal to money ratio.

Which Amir?

 

[Blumlein 88]

Which Amir?

You got me there.

The Amir who does reviews and measurements for us on ASR.

 

[theREALdotnet]

There is actually a spark of truth in all this. Linear systems are fully characterised by few measurements. They don’t produce non-linear distortions (harmonic, intermodulation, quantisation, etc.) by definition. All you have to do is measure the frequency response (amplitude and phase response) from 0 to infinity, and you know all there is to know about the system. This is a very attractive property of linear systems, one we like to ascribe to real systems we’re dealing with as much a s possible, but the limits of this simplification can hit hard and early.

For example, how do we predict, given a measured SINAD at say 1kHz and 2V, what the THD+N is going to be at 2kHz? Or at 0.5V? We’d have to measure every possible combination of input parameters to be sure, but of course that isn’t practical. What we do instead is throw in additional measurements to cover much of the parameter space (e.g. stepped-sine measurements of THD vs frequency, versus input level, etc.), and interpolate the rest.

What can and should be measured vs what is being measured is definitely an interesting discussion to be had, but barging in and proclaiming “you’re doing it all wrong!” is not a good way to start it.

Often the task is much easier, though. We do not necessarily need to describe the behaviour of a real system in every detail, since analysis is often comparative. If something is claimed to sound better than something else, it must first sound different. Comparing output signals of two systems that are produced in response to the same input is something that is very much possible, even straight-forward (since the hard work has been done by someone else ) and can be done with complex signals like music or noise (which may or may not be the same, as the new music thread is trying to investigate).

 

[Sokel]

Sokel
I have a TAD Reference System D600/C600/M700/R1 + Skogrand Cables totally 570.000$
In my system i had many blind listening tests and i believe a properly setup (good AC quality, good speaker placement, good acoustic) TAD system could show difference of cables.

See how easy it was?
As reference system Amir wouldn't depend in cables and little thingies,etc,a reference system is able to reproduce accurate the recording without depending on anything but the basic principles shown by measurements (devices+room).

I think you must reconsider your career.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

I think if one have acquired a CD player which has a 400 VA power supply, one has been had by someone and one is out to justify himself by any means necessary.

Many warning lights with this "one".

 

[Valhalla]

You don't understand measurements do you?

Sure he doesn't. I know him up close and personal and he knows me well. He is a new age upstart person making money out of selling illegal/null/cracked software in Iran local market and aims to multiply his wealth by selling HiEnd and hi-priced audio equipment as a Hi-End snake oil dealer in Iran domestic market and tries to shove his ideas into peeps butt and convince them that Hi-End cables actually make an audible difference! He is a dealer of brands like Skogrand cables to say the least. But he stays away from any kinda blind test to keep his fraudulence under wraps. ASR is his archenemy so he wanted to make a hoax here to refer his customers to. Just ignore this moron and let him run idle in the infinite circle.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Sure he doesn't. I know him up close and personal an he knows me well. He is a new age person making money out of selling illegal/null/cracked software in Iran local market and aims to multiply his wealth by selling HiEnd and hi-priced audio equipment as a Hi-End snake oil dealer in Iran domestic market and tries to shove his ideas into peeps butt and convince them that Hi-End cables actually make an audible difference! He is a dealer of brands like Skogrand cables to say the least. But he stays away from any kinda blind test to keep his fraudulence under wraps. ASR is his archenemy so he wanted to make a hoax here to refer his customers to. Just ignore this moron and let him run idle in the infinite circle.

So he lied to us about studying electrical engineering in university?

 

[Feelas]

There is actually a spark of truth in all this. Linear systems are fully characterised by few measurements. They don’t produce non-linear distortions (harmonic, intermodulation, quantisation, etc.) by definition. All you have to do is measure the frequency response (amplitude and phase response) from 0 to infinity, and you know all there is to know about the system. This is a very attractive property of linear systems, one we like to ascribe to real systems we’re dealing with as much a s possible, but the limits of this simplification can hit hard and early.

For example, how do we predict, given a measured SINAD at say 1kHz and 2V, what the THD+N is going to be at 2kHz? Or at 0.5V? We’d have to measure every possible combination of input parameters to be sure, but of course that isn’t practical. What we do instead is throw in additional measurements to cover much of the parameter space (e.g. stepped-sine measurements of THD vs frequency, versus input level, etc.), and interpolate the rest.

What can and should be measured vs what is being measured is definitely an interesting discussion to be had, but barging in and proclaiming “you’re doing it all wrong!” is not a good way to start it.

Often the task is much easier, though. We do not necessarily need to describe the behaviour of a real system in every detail, since analysis is often comparative. If something is claimed to sound better than something else, it must first sound different. Comparing output signals of two systems that are produced in response to the same input is something that is very much possible, even straight-forward (since the hard work has been done by someone else ) and can be done with complex signals like music or noise (which may or may not be the same, as the new music thread is trying to investigate).

There doesn't seem to be compelling argumentation that going further than THD+N is necessary apart from "but muh speakers are non-linear system". Please at least draw a hypothesis here... There can't be handwaving when planning experiments.

 

[Geert]

ASR is his archenemy so he wanted to make a hoax here to refer his customers to.

It's crazy how many trolls pass by with a hidden agenda, using all kinds of manipulatative discussion techniques and being disrespectful. Every time we give them a fair chance. Nevertheless it's ASR that's portrayed as a hostile and toxic community on other forums. Their subjectivity is clearly not restricted to audio.

 

[Sokel]

For example, how do we predict, given a measured SINAD at say 1kHz and 2V, what the THD+N is going to be at 2kHz? Or at 0.5V?

Isn't the THD+N Ratio vs Frequency what you talk about?Or I am wrong?

 

[JP]

So he lied to us about studying electrical engineering in university?

Lol. I was almost convinced he was a badly programmed bot.

 

[Valhalla]

So he lied to us about studying electrical engineering in university?

No indeed. He studied electronics but just like vast majority of university graduates he is a bravado, all talking but no walking and knows nothing about his field of study and he doesn't even know enough English to know one would actually "study electronics at university" and "read" is not an appropriate verb here, you know... After all he ended up duplicating and selling illegal unlicensed software by copyright infringement in a hellhole country like Iran. So how the heck he would be an expert in electronics? He might know how to use a line tester tough, it remains to be seen. ;-)

 

[Valhalla]

It's crazy how many trolls pass by with a hidden agenda, using all kinds of manipulatative discussion techniques and being disrespectful. Every time we give them a fair chance. Nevertheless it's ASR that's portrayed as a hostile and toxic community on other forums. Their subjectivity is clearly not restricted to audio.

Ain't this world funny?! A fake electronic guy named Amir who makes a living out of selling illegal Windows DVDs comes by for a visit and a quick criticism of opinions of a real electronic expert used to work for Microsoft also named Amir! Quyaanisqatsi! A world out of balance.

 

[Feelas]

It's crazy how many trolls pass by with a hidden agenda, using all kinds of manipulatative discussion techniques and being disrespectful. Every time we give them a fair chance. Nevertheless it's ASR that's portrayed as a hostile and toxic community on other forums. Their subjectivity is clearly not restricted to audio.

If you're clearly trying to persuade everyone into believing what you write while giving no evidence nor even constructing a good argument, then there's no hidden agenda - one should be assumed to come with a clear agenda of trying to persuade everyone if they look so, especially when given several chances to explain.

As to ASR portrayal on different forums... Well, cargo cult science through adherence to (not well understood) measurement numbers & people looking up to Amir as a non-debatable authority is not a made up problem. I believe that mostly anyone here who doesn't do scientific audio work or doesn't work in the audio engineering is subject to that, to a certain extent. Let's not forget that. When you have people with supposedly no experience in the field (and thus no established scientific authority) going around and poking people that subjective experience means nothing, then it does look toxic and hostile. Certainly also leaves an impression of an echo chamber community, which is the worst that might happen.

 

[Waxx]

As to ASR portrayal on different forums... Well, cargo cult science through adherence to (not well understood) measurement numbers & people looking up to Amir as a non-debatable authority is not a made up problem. I believe that mostly anyone here who doesn't do scientific audio work or doesn't work in the audio engineering is subject to that, to a certain extent. Let's not forget that. When you have people with supposedly no experience in the field (and thus no established scientific authority) going around and poking people that subjective experience means nothing, then it does look toxic and hostile.

You have those, but Amir is not like that, you can discuss things with him (but better have good arguments based on science). But i'm a subjectivist in my personal preference, not in the measurement and debunking of audio myths, and i'm not banned yet, nor slaughtered verbally. And it's not that i shut my mouth, i never do (and am banned on some of those fora for that).

 

[Geert]

poking people that subjective experience means nothing, then it does look toxic and hostile

Except that no one here says subjective experience means nothing. It is was it is. But if, for whatever reason, you want your observations to be reliable then you need to be cautious for certain effects that might lead to the wrong conclusions. That's a whole different message (that's repeated more then enough and maliciously twisted by trolls).

Certainly also leaves an impression of an echo chamber community

That's another prejudice I often see. As a matter of fact it's exactly the other way around. This forum has a lot of members who are experts themselves and don't just swallow what Amir feeds them. The reason they often agree is that their knowledge is based on the same education, research materials and professional experience. Again a whole different story than subjective forums blindly following marketeers, reviewers and influencers.

 

[Feelas]

Except that no one here says subjective experience means nothing. It is was it is. But if, for whatever reason, you want your observations to be reliable then you need to be cautious for certain effects that might lead to the wrong conclusions. That's a whole different message (that's repeated more then enough and maliciously twisted by trolls).

Yes, I understand where you're going and agree. Maybe people are being rightfully mocked for not even trying to adhere to scientific matters, I don't know... Making measurements doesn't guarantee data reliability outright, maybe that's where I'm getting at, also.

That's another prejudice I often see. As a matter of fact it's exactly the other way around. This forum has a lot of members who are experts themselves and don't just swallow what Amir feeds them. The reason they often agree is that there knowledge is based on the same education, research materials and professional experience. Again a whole different story than subjective forums blindly following marketeers, reviewers and influencers.

Y'know, this is also the same kind of prejudice as you're bringing up. Some of the subjective lads do have some knowledge, maybe misguided or not entirely used properly, but I'd stray from just throwing every subjectivist into "sheeple buying bullcrap" bag. Every community falls into the echo chamber behaviour sooner or later... I mostly agree, but we all should be keeping attention over it.

 

[Geert]

Some of the subjective lads do have some knowledge, maybe misguided or not entirely used properly, but I'd stray from just throwing every subjectivist into "sheeple buying bullcrap" bag.

You're right. I'm of course focusing on the ones that come over here trolling, and when they get silenced twist the facts on other forums.

Some of the subjective lads do have some knowledge,

If they don't understand the limits of their knowledge then that's often a bigger problem than having no knowledge

 

[Feelas]

If they don't understand the limits of their knowledge then that's often a bigger problem than having no knowledge

Maybe we ought to make them feel welcome and then get challenged after they get all comfy & stuff Would be pretty subversive after all.

To be honest I get more fun out of asking the trolls again and again the same question; seems like a lack of time, but the trolling result is, well, negligible when all they can do is cause people to ask questions.

 

[Xulonn]

This thread is basically a honey pot for trolls.

And unfortunate individuals suffering from Dunning-Kruger Syndrome...