Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Sal1950]

Making measurements doesn't guarantee data reliability outright, maybe that's where I'm getting at, also.

That's true. Anyone can be in error by mistake or a bad understanding of the needed technical knowledge.
The thing about the info posted here by Amir or anyone is that it can be double checked by anyone and any contrary evidence posted.

 

[Sal1950]

And unfortunate individuals suffering from Dunning-Kruger Syndrome...

Good to hear from you old friend.
I hope your health has improved of late.
God Bless.

 

[Blumlein 88]

That's true. Anyone can be in error by mistake or a bad understanding of the needed technical knowledge.
The thing about the info posted here by Amir or anyone is that it can be double checked by anyone and any contrary evidence posted.

Remember one speaker turned out had a damaged woofer. It was remeasured after being replaced. And some anomalous results of the low end with the Klippel eventually with other info from others reviewing his results it was determined to be related to low temperature in his garage where the Klippel is. If you see something wrong, you can point it out and provide other info and things can get changed.

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

Except that no one here says subjective experience means nothing. It is was it is. But if, for whatever reason, you want your observations to be reliable then you need to be cautious for certain effects that might lead to the wrong conclusions. That's a whole different message (that's repeated more then enough and maliciously twisted by trolls).



That's another prejudice I often see. As a matter of fact it's exactly the other way around. This forum has a lot of members who are experts themselves and don't just swallow what Amir feeds them. The reason they often agree is that their knowledge is based on the same education, research materials and professional experience. Again a whole different story than subjective forums blindly following marketeers, reviewers and influencers.

I am content to be a complete idiot, who is content to have Amir, and the other experts here, help save money on our hobby!

 

[Jimster480]

There are people so lost that they are looking at buying Audiophile COMPUTERS

I was sent this by my friend today.... I can't believe that anyone would purchase such a thing. Especially with things such a async USB in the world today.

 

[Feelas]

I am content to be a complete idiot, who is content to have Amir, and the other experts here, help save money on our hobby!

Don't be content with that, help us, help Amir, help yourself through knowing!

 

[fpitas]

There are people so lost that they are looking at buying Audiophile COMPUTERS

I was sent this by my friend today.... I can't believe that anyone would purchase such a thing. Especially with things such a async USB in the world today.

No 6SN7s? They were the backbone of vintage computers

 

[Jimster480]

No 6SN7s? They were the backbone of vintage computers

Imagine Tube powered computers being sold for "sources".... I wouldn't put it past the audiophile world.

 

[Itisawesome]

If one gets enjoyment from listening to music because of how well the hifi equipment measures alone then that is sad. My Mytek Brooklyn Bridge connected to benchmark ahb2 amp then onto Magnepan 1.7i speakers sounded flat, thin, lacking transient punch, body and natural acoustic instruments like cymbals and guitar did not sound real life like. Wow, now that I connected a Ferrum Hypsos to power my Mytek and all those areas are now much improved and music is more enjoyable to listen to. External power supplies may a difference and Amir needs to combine measuring with listening tests. Measuring alone is incomplete because current measurement tests cannot measure listening enjoyment period.

 

[IPunchCholla]

If one gets enjoyment from listening to music because of how well the hifi equipment measures alone then that is sad. My Mytek Brooklyn Bridge connected to benchmark ahb2 amp then onto Magnepan 1.7i speakers sounded flat, thin, lacking transient punch, body and natural acoustic instruments like cymbals and guitar did not sound real life like. Wow, now that I connected a Ferrum Hypsos to power my Mytek and all those areas are now much improved and music is more enjoyable to listen to. External power supplies may a difference and Amir needs to combine measuring with listening tests. Measuring alone is incomplete because current measurement tests cannot measure listening enjoyment period.

You’ll never convince me paying $1195 to Bigfoot to stand in my listening room didn’t make the transients really light up.

But I don’t expect anyone else to believe it without some sort of evidence. Sadly, me and Bigfoot are anti-measurement, so I can’t show you a photo or play and audio recording.

Shrug.

Seriously though, why is audio special? I don’t see these types of debates in photography. Is anybody selling power conditioners for cameras? Magic rocks? If it electrical noise screws up an audio signal, why wouldn’t it screw up a CCD sensor?

I don’t see claims that peoples eyes see better than photo spectrometers. We just measure the crap out of everything (camera, monitor, print) and know we’re not going to get better than that out of the system.

 

[Jimster480]

If one gets enjoyment from listening to music because of how well the hifi equipment measures alone then that is sad. My Mytek Brooklyn Bridge connected to benchmark ahb2 amp then onto Magnepan 1.7i speakers sounded flat, thin, lacking transient punch, body and natural acoustic instruments like cymbals and guitar did not sound real life like. Wow, now that I connected a Ferrum Hypsos to power my Mytek and all those areas are now much improved and music is more enjoyable to listen to. External power supplies may a difference and Amir needs to combine measuring with listening tests. Measuring alone is incomplete because current measurement tests cannot measure listening enjoyment period.

You don't get enjoyment out of how the hardware measures. You get enjoyment out of the realness of the music. Every single time I have heard someone say that a well-measuring product sound shrill and weak and not full I just feel that they have never done any real test. Every single time I have tested the same stuff I have never had those feelings. I have even tested alongside people who have said these things and they can't show me where it sounds different. In AB testing they realize that it is mostly their brain Playing Tricks on them.

 

[antcollinet]

If one gets enjoyment from listening to music because of how well the hifi equipment measures alone then that is sad. My Mytek Brooklyn Bridge connected to benchmark ahb2 amp then onto Magnepan 1.7i speakers sounded flat, thin, lacking transient punch, body and natural acoustic instruments like cymbals and guitar did not sound real life like. Wow, now that I connected a Ferrum Hypsos to power my Mytek and all those areas are now much improved and music is more enjoyable to listen to. External power supplies may a difference and Amir needs to combine measuring with listening tests. Measuring alone is incomplete because current measurement tests cannot measure listening enjoyment period.

And listening enjoyment can't tell you that your Hypsos is making any actual difference to the sound, beyond your own confirmation bias, period. Unless you listen without your eyes. (Controlled/blind listening tests will tell you a lot, you might find yourself surprised.)

And your Mytek Brooklyn Bridge must be a seriously poorly designed piece of crap if it needs a 1K+ power supply to sound good.

 

[Geert]

My Mytek Brooklyn Bridge connected to benchmark ahb2 amp then onto Magnepan 1.7i speakers sounded flat

What did you expect, your Maggie's are flat.

 

[Itisawesome]

And listening enjoyment can't tell you that your Hypsos is making any actual difference to the sound, beyond your own confirmation bias, period. Unless you listen without your eyes. (Controlled/blind listening tests will tell you a lot, you might find yourself surprised.)

And your Mytek Brooklyn Bridge must be a seriously poorly designed piece of crap if it needs a 1K+ power supply to sound good.

Yes sadly the SMPS power supply inside the Brooklyn bridge makes the music sound less enjoyable. Once I understood the bigger brother Manhattan sounds a lot better because it has 2 linear power supplies I realized I can improve the sound of the Brooklyn bridge by using an external psu. Brooklyn bridge + Hypsos is far cheaper than Manhattan and smaller footprint width and depth so I’m happy

 

[Itisawesome]

What did you expect, your Maggie's are flat.

I have a REL S/510 too which is not lol

 

[Blumlein 88]

If one gets enjoyment from listening to music because of how well the hifi equipment measures alone then that is sad. My Mytek Brooklyn Bridge connected to benchmark ahb2 amp then onto Magnepan 1.7i speakers sounded flat, thin, lacking transient punch, body and natural acoustic instruments like cymbals and guitar did not sound real life like. Wow, now that I connected a Ferrum Hypsos to power my Mytek and all those areas are now much improved and music is more enjoyable to listen to. External power supplies may a difference and Amir needs to combine measuring with listening tests. Measuring alone is incomplete because current measurement tests cannot measure listening enjoyment period.

Amir already listens.

What was your listening methodology to determine the difference? I'm betting it was lacking in rigor because I bet if Amir measured the two power supplies there would be no difference in the signal coming out of your Mytek.

 

[Sokel]

For example, how do we predict, given a measured SINAD at say 1kHz and 2V, what the THD+N is going to be at 2kHz?

Also,@pkane gave us exactly that in the last Multitone update.
Here's some quick sloppy results of my own old interface:

SINAD over frequency

IMD

 

[Feelas]

Yes sadly the SMPS power supply inside the Brooklyn bridge makes the music sound less enjoyable. Once I understood the bigger brother Manhattan sounds a lot better because it has 2 linear power supplies I realized I can improve the sound of the Brooklyn bridge by using an external psu. Brooklyn bridge + Hypsos is far cheaper than Manhattan and smaller footprint width and depth so I’m happy

With a long chain with numerous elements (as is any listening system, even if it was all-analogue), how do you exactly know that it is the SMPS power supply that is making the sound worse?

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

Don't be content with that, help us, help Amir, help yourself through knowing!

Thank you Feelas. Believe me, as I approach eighty, I have tried to understand the science.
I do have to accept my limitations.

 

[Sokel]

I have a question:
This is the interface's SINAD at the traditional measurement (who happens to match the 10 years old published spec's),ok?

Is it correct to assume that with a music signal which is usually around -12db and with a 2000 tone multitone gets closer to real world music listening?
I mean roughly,except I'm not including some really basic parameter.
Note,that will be worst lowering the volume,but let it as is now.

Thoughts?