Real world music doesn't have equal power across the frequency range. It drops off significantly at higher frequencies.
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Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?
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Sokel
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Yes,we took it to the proper thread and @pkane is about to bring us some nice things to the next update.
Beta Test: Multitone Loopback Analyzer software
v1.0.38 fix for the incorrect frequency sweep level: Changes in 1.0.38 Fix: channel selector not always restored correctly on start-up Fix: frequency sweep shows wrong level on the status bar and sweep output level changes from the selected play gain during the sweep
www.audiosciencereview.com
Powerbench
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My opinion is gear especially the source, the media and recording equipment and the listening environment/listener all are variables to the experience. Everyone has different receptions based on these and different factors. Some people prioritize their perception due to personal bias.
You may or may not believe in empirical data.
Just like in a relationship I may prefer the measurements of my preferred potential female counterpart. Overtime I learned to adjust my expectations. YMMV…
You may or may not believe in empirical data.
Just like in a relationship I may prefer the measurements of my preferred potential female counterpart. Overtime I learned to adjust my expectations. YMMV…
Your welcome to put together a system that sounds like anything that pleases you.
But that has never been the goal of building a High Fidelity system.
That name says it all, a system that reproduces the sound of the source as accurately as possible.
The data will tell you how well you've accomplished that goal.
YMMV
I'm not sure how to begin unwinding this level of nonsense.
Killingbeans
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He could start with this: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...d-testing-you-are-doing-it-wrong-video.26809/
Odds are that a blind test would reveal how that Ferrum Hypsos doesn't do diddly-squat.
Odds are that a blind test would reveal how that Ferrum Hypsos doesn't do diddly-squat.
John Silver
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Hi folks,
I'm John, a vintage HiFi nerd. I've owned a lot of vintage gear over the years. I don't have much experience with the newer stuff...especially the stuff from China that performs really well under the scrutiny of measurements.
We have the following:
THD
Crosstalk
Linearity
etc.
But one particular measurement would make those naysayers believe ASR once and for all.
With source components (DACs, CD Players, streamers etc.), I am suggesting using an ADC and showing images of the actual waveform versus from a program like Sound Forge Pro, Audacity, or Wavepad Master Edition.
So for example, you record the output of only the DAC playing the first 30 seconds of a song. Same sample track. What has changed/what is different? We will then have greater insight in to the very real differences between source components. I can tell you for a fact that just because something has low THD and low noise, that does not necessarily mean it will offer sonic presentation that is totally neutral/detailed/amazing. To tell you the truth, I've owned amplifiers that have 0.01 % THD that offered a more realistic presentation than those with lower numbers. There are a ton of different things that go in to designing a piece of gear. State of the art performance for a hundred bucks? I think not. There are design compromises that will color the sound, therefore altering how it presents your music to you. Also consider that - if they're selling you this stuff for only a hundred dollars or maybe even a few hundred, their manufacturing costs/cost of parts must be very low. Everything makes a difference in the end. just my 2 cents.
John.
I'm John, a vintage HiFi nerd. I've owned a lot of vintage gear over the years. I don't have much experience with the newer stuff...especially the stuff from China that performs really well under the scrutiny of measurements.
We have the following:
THD
Crosstalk
Linearity
etc.
But one particular measurement would make those naysayers believe ASR once and for all.
With source components (DACs, CD Players, streamers etc.), I am suggesting using an ADC and showing images of the actual waveform versus from a program like Sound Forge Pro, Audacity, or Wavepad Master Edition.
So for example, you record the output of only the DAC playing the first 30 seconds of a song. Same sample track. What has changed/what is different? We will then have greater insight in to the very real differences between source components. I can tell you for a fact that just because something has low THD and low noise, that does not necessarily mean it will offer sonic presentation that is totally neutral/detailed/amazing. To tell you the truth, I've owned amplifiers that have 0.01 % THD that offered a more realistic presentation than those with lower numbers. There are a ton of different things that go in to designing a piece of gear. State of the art performance for a hundred bucks? I think not. There are design compromises that will color the sound, therefore altering how it presents your music to you. Also consider that - if they're selling you this stuff for only a hundred dollars or maybe even a few hundred, their manufacturing costs/cost of parts must be very low. Everything makes a difference in the end. just my 2 cents.
John.
Like the null test our host has started to show when relevant?
Depends on what component. DACs? Sure. High powered amps? Not so much.
IMO, Frequency response and adequate power are going to be the main issues at the .1% (-60dB) THD level and below. Once clipping kicks in, all bets are off.
Are you a designer?
That won't show up in the suite of measurements? For example?
Sounds exhausting... You just joined today and created that as a new thread as your first post, so thought I'd put it where this discussion has been going on for some time. No need to reinvent the wheel.
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BDWoody has already mentioned it, but Deltawave from member pkane is just up your ally. It does null tests using musical clips ideally from 1 to 3 minutes long. Compare an original with a recording or compare one wire vs another wire or any such stuff. It matches gain and adjusts timing to fit timing precisely and will even correct for phase and frequency response if you wish for it to.
He also has some other useful software. All free so far. Distort lets you build up any distortion profile and level you wish so you can listen to music and see if you can hear it and what it sounds like. Multitone is a useful measuring software for your more conventional things.
I don't know your age or level of experience but would only like to add a few comments.
I'm 72 and had a lot of first hand experience with vintage gear from back in the day to today, and with it much of what your saying is true.
But the electronics side of modern audio gear has been a solved issue for a number of decades now with the main progress being made in the areas of efficiency and production costs. So in the end, very little makes a real difference in its sound, unless purposeful changes have been made to known modern design ideals.
Just to add....
Colouration from electronics? - that can only be in the form of distortion, noise, frequency response. And any difference that is audible will show up in the measurements.
Odd as my first post on this forum. I would say objective measurements have lots of value. Things like frequency response are pretty useful as the human brain is pretty fallible when it comes to aural memory, so entirely relying on your ears is not going to be the best if you want to be able to tell the real differences between each product.Seems like so many review threads get challenged with:
1. Measurements are not everything.
2. You all never listen.
3. I trust my ears, not graphs.
4. I don't listen to graphs. I listen to music.
5. You all must not listen to music at all.
6. Why don't you all buy the best SINAD gear?
7. I have heard your best SINAD gear and they sound terrible. I don't like any of this Chinese stuff.
8. You don't trust your ears. I/we do.
9. All these reviewers/youtubers/audophiles say these amps, DACs, etc. sound different and you say they don't. They can't all be wrong.
10. Surely designers have created certain house sound for each equipment which your measurements don't show.
11. Your measurements are only at one frequency. You need to also measure X, Y and Z like impulse response, slew rate, etc., etc.
12. You guys run a cult here where you only go by measurements and no one is allowed to disagree.
On and on...
I have had to answer these so many times that I thought it is time to stop having them go into every review as they are not product specific. From here on, any such questions should be posted here. Answers will be given in this thread and simply referenced in future challenges in other threads.
@AdamG247 and @BDWoody, please direct any future posts in review threads to here and not allow discussions there.
Thanks. You all are free to discuss this topic, provide answers, argue, whatever, in this thread.
Let's take for example, Z Reviews, who once famously said, "The HD 58X is basically the HD HD660S". Pretty bold statement, if you ask me. If you look and compare the frequency responses of both headphones, you'll find that the 58X has a brighter treble, whilst the 660S has a much darker, veiled treble. Audio reviewers should at least use frequency response graphs for greater consistency between reviews, although THAT, is my personal opinion. At one point, differences between FR in headphones will become inconceivable by the human ear, by let's say 1db of difference in FR is inaudible.
When you rely on human reviewers, they can be prone to many inconsistencies. Sometimes their own personal biases will get in the way. Perhaps they use vague and confusing language (I'm looking at you, Joshua Valour). Maybe they have ulterior motives, they might wax lyrical about a product just so the manufacturer gets sales, and in turn, they get sales.
I think people should refer to objective measurements to see which headphone is to their liking, just as they would ask a reviewer for recommendations. There are probably some people out there who say, "NO!!!!! You can't do that, you gotta listen, not drool over graphs, you idiot.". Well, some metrics can tell you whether you might like a headphone or not. For example, if you like to be drowned in bass, then you can just look at the FR of some headphone and say, "Hey, I might like that!". There are other, such as detail, that can be measured, like detail or dynamics, or perhaps timbre. These are all metrics we can use to see if we might like the product's sound or not.
Completely objective measurements are far more useful than flawed human reviewers interpretations. They have no coloration, no biases, no ulterior motives. They are consistent to a T. They present the facts plainly and simply, like most reviewers should. Ultimately, people aren't looking at the reviewers potential biases or likes or dislikes, they are looking at the facts, not the reviewer. This is why objective measurements are the best, as they are completely unbiased and have to ulterior motives.
So yes, measurements are everything. But not quite. We need to be able to measure thing like transients, soundstage, dynamics before we completely rely on measurements. Otherwise, I suppose most of our impressions of sound quality must come from trusted reviewers, I suppose.
John Silver
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Okay. Well I mean the null test between 2 or 3 of the best measuring DACs on this website. Are you absolutely certain that capturing the output from the same file will produce identical waveforms? Meaning 100% the same?!
There are some things that are beyond the ability of a machine to measure. Humans are flawed. And humans made machines! Including but not limited to machines designed to measure audio gear, and of course audio gear itself. Through human evolution, we have evolved a much more localized sense of hearing compared to other animals. Our range of hearing is much better in the midrange and lower treble...and music can always be subject to auditory masking and how the brain filters the sound or music we listen to/hear. Our ears can pick up the smallest sounds from far away distances and localize sound accurately. If we are honest with ourselves -- simply relax and listen without any expectation bias (i won't hear a difference) vs (i will hear a difference) simply having no belief in being able to hear a difference or not...being a blank slate in a sense...then we will definitely hear differences that are meaningful between audio gear of all kinds. The fact of the matter is - anyone who only believes in measurments has a deep-rooted belief that clouds their judgement when listening to new audio gear.
Suppose that 2 sportscars weigh roughly the same and have 400 horsepower. They were made by 2 rival companies. One costs half as much. But the other dealer tells you that how we arrived at 400 hp was with a no-compromise design philosphy. No turbo charger needed like the other model. In this same way, much of this Chinese audio gear is little more than the most recent ICs, OP amps, inexpensive capacitors, cheap parts, lighweight casework which does nothing to absorb microvibrations, and measurement wars between such companies which has lead to gear with high SINAD (low THD, high dynamic range, etc.) but at what cost?
True high end gear is like looking at the engine of a Rolls Royce. You could get a rusty mechanic or any car manufacturer to build an engine with equivalent horsepower and torque... but it still won't be equal. There is a level of design that is not found in lower-end gear. Sure, the THD might be higher - but that's mostly because of little to no negative feedback or design compromises. In essence, providing you with the best possible objective performance that falls squarely in the range of hearing that we humans can actually discern and appreciate. And so, if you can't hear distortion when driving a pair of headphones on a headphone amp, or on a power/integrated amp, it does not matter. At that point, 0.01 % THD vs 0.0000000001 THD is meaningless specification. I think you get the point by now.
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Null tests of analog signals can never be 100% identical due to thermal noise. Nor will it be 100% identical when you hear it for the same reason. It does appear in testing that we can get down around that level. Besides the human ear also definitely does not need 100% identical signals to be unable to tell a difference.
Our hearing is quite good, but likely not the best in world of mammals.
One can relax and hear differences, but are they something heard different in the sound the ear is hearing, or something added by our mind. Easy to find out.
Funny how measurements allow the manufacture of incredibly accurate devices, but people who believe in measurements have clouded listening judgement. Yet those people believe fully in letting hearing decide the matter.
Do you think there are no two pieces of audio gear of different designs that you cannot hear a difference in?
John Silver
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I think you are avoiding much of what I wrote with short answers that don't allow for an honest discussion.
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Without knowing more who can say about the two cars? Is the non-turbo model electric? As to the cost of high SINAD etc? The answer is much lower cost versus companies of no compromise. Often no compromise designs are poor design because designers don't know where compromises are best made. I agree specs can become meaningless at some point, but so can things like the idea that no feedback/low feedback is better. It doesn't work as well nor sound as accurate.
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Concerning what part? Did you know null tests can never be 100% identical? If so okay, BDWoody never said they were. So he and I both are certain it won't be 100% identical.
Instead of a scattershot post maybe focus on something if you want to discuss it.
If you were honest with yourself you’d realize that you cannot force yourself to do this. Thinking that one can do that is very naive. Blind tests were invented exactly for that reason, and not just for audio.
I’d love to have a definition of that “no compromise”
Generally it seems to mean cobbling together the most expensive, unverified claims components one can find, making it look good on a badly layouted PCB using age old and outdated circuit layouts, delivering sub par performance.
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