Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[solderdude]

if amplification and D to A conversion are essentially solved problems .....

Because it is nice to have independent verification and it is obvious there are still questionable quality electronics being sold.
We will not know until independent measurements have been made so that's why it has to be measured.

Some basic measurements and based on that see if closer scrutiny is needed.

 

[Killingbeans]

It doesn’t have to be instead of, it can be in addition to.

Absolutely. As long as you keep the distinction intact.

If all we care about is measured performance and blind testing; if amplification and D to A conversion are essentially solved problems; if analog sources are hopelessly obsolete; we don’t think aesthetics are worth anything, I don‘t see why we are discussing anything but speakers, equalizer, and room treatments.

Well those three things (speakers, equalizers, and room treatment) get pointed out again and again as the key factors every time someone asks about making real physical upgrades to their system. But also, nobody judges you if you buy stuff that looks good, feels good or colors the sound in a way you enjoy, as long as you don't insist on putting a different label on them as contributors.

I seriously think you're preaching to the choir?

 

[Robbo99999]

Missing the point entirely. Choosing one aspect of an experience and pretending the other doesn’t exist doesn’t make it so.

Test after test prove that looks matter to perceived sound.

People use their systems with their eyes open.

Then they say looks don’t matter.

Subjectivists claim they aren’t influenced by their eyes.

Objectivists claim the subjectivists are influenced by their eyes but themselves aren’t. Balderdash

It's pretty simple though, just buy good measuring gear, and then if you can afford it & find it then buy expensive good looking well measuring gear - point is if you maximise the objective "science" side then you can add your love of the aesthetic to enhance that if you want. The problem, or sad situation is when people spend a lot of money on an aesthetically pleasing product that screams performance & luxury yet it measures rubbish, that's not getting the best experience you could and is more stepping into the self-delusion side. I personally don't buy audio gear based on aesthetic, so I don't think I'm strongly influenced by that phenomenon, some people are gonna be more influenced by it than others.

 

[DavidK442]

(Please excuse me for not reading the previous 2181 posts before leaving my two cents.)

I have been shocked at the vitriol response in forums every time I link to an ASR review. I was also surprised to learn that YouTube creators can remove contrary comments left on their channel.
I always approach with caution, and respectfully offer an alternate viewpoint, but the Golden-ear Club members are a vocal and angry bunch.

 

[NJC]

Not remotely helpful. That is not how we do things here. Those subjective wordy descriptions of sound difference between well measuring dacs (slower and lighter on its feet ffs) are fantasy and only help to delude the unwary.

Ah..."we"? not everyone here belongs to the "we". There are SQ/sound differences. Regardless of specs. Each dac has some design differences.

Someone can prefer one presentation over another as well.

 

[NJC]

I'm willing to make a bet that he can not hear the difference between the old(er) ESS9028, the new(er) ESS9038Pro and the latest ESS9068 in a properly setup controlled double blind test (using the same filter settings).

Can say what you want but the audiophile marketing machine works more than perfect.. to a point that to a lot of people it takes religious like levels that chips sound different.

I can hear differences particularly with music I am familiar with. There's more to a dac than a chip. It's how you build the dac around the chip. It's how it performs in ones' system. Believe what you want, that's your prerogative. I only posted what I found useful "subjectively", from other users, not just specs.

I think opinions are allowed in the forums.

 

[Lupin]

I can hear differences particularly with music I am familiar with. There's more to a dac than a chip. It's how you build the dac around the chip. It's how it performs in ones' system. Believe what you want, that's your prerogative. I only posted what I found useful "subjectively", from other users, not just specs.

I think opinions are allowed in the forums.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I have mine, you have yours I'm totally fine with that.

I do agree with your statement that a DAC is more then just the chip, that is also exactly why Amir measures the output of the DAC and not the chip. You and hundreds other people claim to be able to hear a difference.. yet I have not seen a single properly conducted scientific double blind volume matched blind test that proves that someone can hear a difference. How is that possible when hundreds, thousands even, claim to be able to hear a difference, many even claim a night and day difference? So no, until those test results finally show up I do not agree with your opinion. However when/if they do show up I will be the first to admit I was wrong. So please prove me wrong, it would blow the whole audiophile scene wide open.

I do hope however that you realize that you're on the Audio Science Review forums.
Your subjective opinion (or anyone's subjective opinion for that matter) is just that, a subjective opinion which has no scientific basis whatsoever.
You're not going to find a big following here that will agree with your opinions and I think this is not the best place to discus or try to convince other people of those opinions.

Before you start.. no ASR is not any less tolerant then Head-Fi or other forums. One can and will get banned from Head-Fi if one post questions about the subjective audiophile snake oil marketing trick posts from so called sponsors.

Amir might as well rename ASR to Head-Fi V2.0 if we're just going to discus and share those wonderful magical subjective properties of DACs all day long. One can do that if they wish, there are places like Head-Fi just for that. Personally I hope we can keep ASR more scientific based, I will go to Head-Fi if I want to read about subjective "opinions".

 

[antcollinet]

Ah..."we"? not everyone here belongs to the "we". There are SQ/sound differences. Regardless of specs. Each dac has some design differences.

Someone can prefer one presentation over another as well.

The name of the site should give you a clue. We means those who are here for the objective science/measurement based approach to assessing equipment - and what can reasonably expect to be audible between well designed, similarly measuring kit.

 

[Killingbeans]

Each dac has some design differences.

Yes, but it's not a given that they are audible.

 

[Larry B. Larabee]

(Please excuse me for not reading the previous 2181 posts before leaving my two cents.)

I have been shocked at the vitriol response in forums every time I link to an ASR review. I was also surprised to learn that YouTube creators can remove contrary comments left on their channel.
I always approach with caution, and respectfully offer an alternate viewpoint, but the Golden-ear Club members are a vocal and angry bunch.

It isn't so bad. You can learn from some members who offer well documented information. If someone asks you to A/B your shorts if you tell them the ones you have on today are more comfortable than the ones you had on yesterday when they came out of the same package you can just ignore them. If subjective opinions were frowned upon here they have done something about it long ago, like it was on the old foobar (hydrogenaudio?) forum. As far as the reviews go, tough to decipher when based on a buying decision. Everything seems to be too good or very bad. There are other forums, btw.

 

[BDWoody]

I have been shocked at the vitriol response in forums every time I link to an ASR review.

There are a lot of haters...

It can be funny at times. Someone was accusing our host of being dishonest and misleading when it was discovered his Avatar is not, in fact, his actual picture. So many of the truly vitriolic have clearly not spent much time here.

 

[Robin L]

There are a lot of haters...

It can be funny at times. Someone was accusing our host of being dishonest and misleading when it was discovered his Avatar is not, in fact, his actual picture. So many of the truly vitriolic have clearly not spent much time here.

I certainly felt crestfallen. I was so hoping to meet her someday.

Now I suspect she's a simulacrum sent from AI central and will eventually take control of our Alexa.

 

[Gene LeClair]

(Please excuse me for not reading the previous 2181 posts before leaving my two cents.)

I have been shocked at the vitriol response in forums every time I link to an ASR review. I was also surprised to learn that YouTube creators can remove contrary comments left on their channel.
I always approach with caution, and respectfully offer an alternate viewpoint, but the Golden-ear Club members are a vocal and angry bunch.

When it comes to YouTube reviewers, a lot of them would go out of job if people would focus on the scientific measurements. After all, most of them don't have the skills to do those measurements. Anybody can make YouTube reviews.

Another thing is, that their channels really are about commercialism. They get paid to do the reviews and have to be positive about the products they are reviewing. I wouldn't be surprised if the comment censorship was even mandated by the corporations that are paying them. A lot of the YouTube reviews are really just commercials.

 

[nagster]

Hmmh yeah, maybe Topping D90SE measures nice here, but, it depends how you look at things.

I did run some measurements too.

View attachment 180265

OK, that looked decent, let's see how it looks like with -60 dBFS input:
View attachment 180266

OK, WTF is going on here? Let's try the same -60 dBFS signal with 352.8k rate:
View attachment 180267

OK, better, but something is still wrong. How about DSD256 input:
View attachment 180268

Better still, but still some noise floor modulation issues.

If we then take a half price DAC with same test, same DAC chip:
View attachment 180273


View attachment 180269

Now that's better!

And we can even go to about 250€ PCIe card based on AKM chip:
View attachment 180272

So maybe choosing a DAC based on the SINAD chart is not the best thing to do. I wasted 900€, and the D90SE stays in the box. I had totally opposite experience with the ADI-2 for example. Maybe more thorough testing by the manufacturer?

I found the dreadful FFT of D90SE and was curious.

But I gave up the reproduction because I couldn't succeed even in the first -60dBFS.

 

[antcollinet]

There are a lot of haters...

It can be funny at times. Someone was accusing our host of being dishonest and misleading when it was discovered his Avatar is not, in fact, his actual picture. So many of the truly vitriolic have clearly not spent much time here.

He was. I, on the other hand, am genuinely an owl.

 

[NJC]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I have mine, you have yours I'm totally fine with that.

I do agree with your statement that a DAC is more then just the chip, that is also exactly why Amir measures the output of the DAC and not the chip. You and hundreds other people claim to be able to hear a difference.. yet I have not seen a single properly conducted scientific double blind volume matched blind test that proves that someone can hear a difference. How is that possible when hundreds, thousands even, claim to be able to hear a difference, many even claim a night and day difference? So no, until those test results finally show up I do not agree with your opinion. However when/if they do show up I will be the first to admit I was wrong. So please prove me wrong, it would blow the whole audiophile scene wide open.

I do hope however that you realize that you're on the Audio Science Review forums.
Your subjective opinion (or anyone's subjective opinion for that matter) is just that, a subjective opinion which has no scientific basis whatsoever.
You're not going to find a big following here that will agree with your opinions and I think this is not the best place to discus or try to convince other people of those opinions.

Before you start.. no ASR is not any less tolerant then Head-Fi or other forums. One can and will get banned from Head-Fi if one post questions about the subjective audiophile snake oil marketing trick posts from so called sponsors.

Amir might as well rename ASR to Head-Fi V2.0 if we're just going to discus and share those wonderful magical subjective properties of DACs all day long. One can do that if they wish, there are places like Head-Fi just for that. Personally I hope we can keep ASR more scientific based, I will go to Head-Fi if I want to read about subjective "opinions".

Well, he measures one aspect of equipment that one can, I suppose call scientific and/or technical...as to why there can be a difference between what we percieve is the realm of neuroscience.

Not to mention, I was addressing a person asking about the D70s which I own. And to think that started all this hullabaloo.

 

[antcollinet]

Sure - neuroscience. But if the audio waveforms going to your speakers are effectively identical - and therefore the sound waves hitting your eardrum are same, then any difference you hear is created in your brain. A well understood phenomena.

That is neuroscience for you. It is why controlled blind level matched ABX testing exists.

 

[Scienceguy]

Hi:

For me specs can only tell you so much but unfortunately don't give you much of an idea of the sound of an amp or how it may perform in your system. I've had a few great "spec" amps that when taken home and auditioned have not really worked for me. The ultimate litmus test for me is the sound of the amp and it's compatibility specs are second. Comparing power out put of two different amps with very different prices and power output makes me think that an audible comparison should be done before passing judgement with regards to sound quality and an overall impression of the two as to over all value.

I have an Audio Space kt-88 tube integrated amp with 45 watts at 4 ohms that sounds amazing much better than some equal or more costly solid state amps that I've auditioned in my set up. Never having experienced tubes but having heard many positive reviews of "Audio Space" in particular I decided to audition one when the opportunity presented itself as I was in the market for an upgrade. The sound is truly amazing very organic a real boon to my system. I've had the amp for 7 years now with no reliability issues - zero - which well built tube amps have a reputation for. It will easily drive my Magnapan 1.7's and has plenty of reserve power for these hard to drive speakers. For the tube people out there to get the most life and reliability out your tubes there's a very personable fellow In Canada, who is very easy to talk to, who makes "audio tube coolers" for this purpose. I've had mine for years and they really work and are not expensive. I know this from personal experience there's a VU meter on my Audio Space integrated to adjust milliamps to sustain maximum life and performance from the power tubes and the dial has remained at 12 o'clock which is ideal for both.

If you're interested here's the address:

https://pearl-hifi.com/03_Prod_Serv/Coolers/Coolers.html.

Thanks for your time always nice talking to fellow audiophiles.

5.4k usd for 2 x 200W in 4 ohms with "good 3rd harmonic distortion". When there are already amps that do 2 x 500W in 4 ohms with no audible distortion for 700 usd. Tough sell for ASR, objective-oriented crowd, maybe more to euphonic, subjective-oriented audiophiles?

 

[SIY]

For me specs can only tell you so much but unfortunately don't give you much of an idea of the sound of an amp or how it may perform in your system.

How do you square this assertion with decades of evidence that it does exactly that? Unless by "specs" you're limiting to what's in advertising rather than basic measurements.

 

[rwortman]

Because that's the point of the site? Engineering excellence in audio and the discussion of it. Especially as it pertains to products that either push the envelope or have been woefully designed.

It appears that it is electrical engineering excellence in the service of producing more impressive test bench performance. It’s fine to be in love with circuit boards but engineering doesn’t stop there.