Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Robbo99999]

You aren’t going to find many people on a subjectivist forum complaining that their latest bauble didn’t deliver. Just people like us telling them that it couldn’t have and them telling us we must be deaf. If they thought it was going to produce better sound and in their mind it did, they are happy. They bought it because marketing+aesthetics said better sound. When they got it, perceptually it did. We can say measurements are all that matter all we want but the market says otherwise.

Ideally you want the best objective sound (through measurements) and then secondly you want your described dopamine hit of fine aesthetics too, that's maximising all possible effects. Also it's true that there's an element of psychological bias that knowing you have good measuring equipment may make you think it sounds better than it does, ie good anechoically measuring speakers setup wrongly in a poor room - but then you could argue you'd measure your speakers in-room with a mic and do your best with EQ'ing out the room modes, or treating your room or changing layouts, but it does work both ways in terms of psychological bias/reinforcement. Just you shouldn't ignore the science/measurement side of audio and rely on snake oil sales patter and fancy "luxury" visual design as a means to best sound.

 

[BDWoody]

And I don't really understand why people get defensive over falling for placebo or how people don't acknowledge their own cognitive biases.

It makes them (feel) less special.

 

[SIY]

In any case, I forgot all about pre/post echo in LPs. I remember every time I would cue up "Down to Zero" from Joan Armatrading's eponymous LP I would hear a cycle [sometimes two] of pre-echo before the song. Of course, it happened on other records, but my white label promos of that LP were go-to discs to check out audio "upgrades". It's been so long since I heard that song from an LP that I forgot all about that. Like the effective reduction of groove speed due to less groove available as the stylus gets closer to the deadwax, this "echoplex" running through an LP has to be audible and can help explain why people a difference for which they may claim preference. It's different from boring old [!] digital sound so it must be better.

Try some of the much-praised Proprius discs: their pre-echo made them unlistenable to me. I never determined whether it was from tape print-through or the pressing, but I'm sure someone has.

 

[Killingbeans]

You aren’t going to find many people on a subjectivist forum complaining that their latest bauble didn’t deliver. Just people like us telling them that it couldn’t have and them telling us we must be deaf. If they thought it was going to produce better sound and in their mind it did, they are happy. They bought it because marketing+aesthetics said better sound. When they got it, perceptually it did. We can say measurements are all that matter all we want but the market says otherwise.

The market tells the Emperor to ignore all the people saying he's naked. And the industry is kept afloat by people with "invisible" looms.

I get the whole whatever makes you happy -thing, but I still think a nudist camp would be a more useful place if the people inside actually knew they were naked. Especially since they keep telling people outside the camp how to make clothes. Those with an genuine interest in fabric has to swim across an ocean of nonsense before they even begin to find information on real clothes making. Ignorance might be bliss, but it's a PITA for those who aren't.

 

[ahofer]

You aren’t going to find many people on a subjectivist forum complaining that their latest bauble didn’t deliver. Just people like us telling them that it couldn’t have and them telling us we must be deaf. If they thought it was going to produce better sound and in their mind it did, they are happy. They bought it because marketing+aesthetics said better sound. When they got it, perceptually it did. We can say measurements are all that matter all we want but the market says otherwise.

I agree, but the market often succeeds at selling short-term satisfaction at the expense of long-term. If you read Audiogon or whatever, you see people declaring that they have found their end-game component only to get the upgrade itch in months. There’s a guy there who’s gone through over 50 *amplifiers*. He insists he can tell the difference.

My theory is that the non-audible stimuli are quite variable or, worse, monotonically fading, and it feeds the upgrade itch as the novelty wears off.

Of course, another possibility is that we get used to the different experience, hedonically adjust, and hit the upgrade button like addicted lab rats.

Of course, the “market” doesn’t care which theory is right, only that the customer return.

It’s an old story, and one that generalizes in happiness theory. We are bad judges of how we will feel in the future. In retrospect, I get a lot of satisfaction out of having enjoyed the same system for over 20 years (the streak was broken by equipment failure). But I probably would have stayed on the upgrade treadmill if raising a family hadn’t diverted my finances and attention.

 

[Miska]

And this type of stuff happens all the time now with all the people buying vinyl and swearing it sounds better than CDs.

In many cases, especially old vinyls (I have a lot) can sound better than CDs.

There can be various reasons, such as:
1) Old vinyls don't have as much dynamic range compression as latest CD/download releases
2) Old vinyls don't have all the heavy digital clipping you can find from most recent CD releases

Vinyl pressings may have different mastering than the "ear-pod mastered" CD versions. Same thing for hires releases.

Also old CD releases can sound better than more recent ones. For example I have five digital versions of Pink Floyd DSOTM and two vinyl versions of the same:

Album list - Dynamic Range DB

dr.loudness-war.info

Old recording, and not prime subject of loudness wars (today's pop music), but still there are differences between different releases.

And the early CD version is pretty good and same goes for the old vinyl version. Some of the more recent ones are worse. Overall, above site is good place start.


Then with modern hardware, it is important to check how it behaves when exposed to all the faulty CD content. For example handling of inter-sample overs varies.

 

[Robin L]

In many cases, especially old vinyls (I have a lot) can sound better than CDs.

There can be various reasons, such as:
1) Old vinyls don't have as much dynamic range compression as latest CD/download releases
2) Old vinyls don't have all the heavy digital clipping you can find from most recent CD releases

Vinyl pressings may have different mastering than the "ear-pod mastered" CD versions. Same thing for hires releases.

Also old CD releases can sound better than more recent ones. For example I have five digital versions of Pink Floyd DSOTM and two vinyl versions of the same:

Album list - Dynamic Range DB

dr.loudness-war.info

Old recording, and not prime subject of loudness wars (today's pop music), but still there are differences between different releases.

And the early CD version is pretty good and same goes for the old vinyl version. Some of the more recent ones are worse. Overall, above site is good place start.


Then with modern hardware, it is important to check how it behaves when exposed to all the faulty CD content. For example handling of inter-sample overs varies.

"Vinyls" isn't a word.

 

[ahofer]

"Vinyls" isn't a word.

It's a band.

 

[Ken1951]

Don't forget The Divinyls!

 

[pkane]

"Vinyls" isn't a word.

Nobody expects the Grammar Police!

 

[Jimbob54]

Nobody expects the Grammar Police!

On this site? Pretty sure they do

 

[Robbo99999]

In many cases, especially old vinyls (I have a lot) can sound better than CDs.

There can be various reasons, such as:
1) Old vinyls don't have as much dynamic range compression as latest CD/download releases
2) Old vinyls don't have all the heavy digital clipping you can find from most recent CD releases

Vinyl pressings may have different mastering than the "ear-pod mastered" CD versions. Same thing for hires releases.

Also old CD releases can sound better than more recent ones. For example I have five digital versions of Pink Floyd DSOTM and two vinyl versions of the same:

Album list - Dynamic Range DB

dr.loudness-war.info

Old recording, and not prime subject of loudness wars (today's pop music), but still there are differences between different releases.

And the early CD version is pretty good and same goes for the old vinyl version. Some of the more recent ones are worse. Overall, above site is good place start.


Then with modern hardware, it is important to check how it behaves when exposed to all the faulty CD content. For example handling of inter-sample overs varies.

+1 on the loudness war point, my experience too.

 

[rwortman]

So a question is: Who has created the market for high priced voodoo in the audio world? Magazine writers? Equipment companies? Gullible consumers?

 

[Robbo99999]

So a question is: Who has created the market for high priced voodoo in the audio world? Magazine writers? Equipment companies? Gullible consumers?

All of them take a part don't they. Good thing about this site is it helps you avoid all that nonsense.

 

[Miska]

"Vinyls" isn't a word.

Voin kyllä kirjoittaa suomeksikin jos se on parempi siten.

 

[Jimbob54]

So a question is: Who has created the market for high priced voodoo in the audio world? Magazine writers? Equipment companies? Gullible consumers?

Yup, you guessed it, all of the above.

 

[Robin L]

So a question is: Who has created the market for high priced voodoo in the audio world? Magazine writers? Equipment companies? Gullible consumers?

HP and Mikey, more than anyone else.

 

[Robin L]

Voin kyllä kirjoittaa suomeksikin jos se on parempi siten.

Nah, "Vinyls" is grammatically WRONG no matter what language.

Nice try.

 

[Miska]

Nah, "Vinyls" is grammatically WRONG no matter what language.

Nice try.

Millä tavalla on väärin sanoa "vinyylit" suomeksi?

 

[Blumlein 88]

So a question is: Who has created the market for high priced voodoo in the audio world? Magazine writers? Equipment companies? Gullible consumers?

For whatever reason it seems to have really taken off just after CDs became available. Maybe once the source is transparent the only way to improve its quality is make believe.