Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[DanielT]

pretty much

Now that you get so much spanking here. Did you not say in a previous post that you wanted to test a tube amp? Try it... you (might ) like it ..
(attached picture, yes, we are all adults in this thread).

There you have something sensible you can try. There you MAY hear differences in sound. Transistor vs tube based amp. You might like the tube amp sound. That is, the type of (if you are lucky ... or unlucky ... depending on how you see it) distortion.

Edit:
Posted a nicer picture. The former was too cheeky.I apologize for that

 

[Holmz]

Excuse my lack of knowledge, but is there any special tradition in the US to keep joking and fooling others around New Year?

ROFL

 

[BoredErica]

It was good practice for when a genuine subjective to objective conversion is occurring. Got to get in their minds and dispel all those pesky subjective indoctrinations they have endured.

Your pleasant demeanor is always refreshing.

 

[Pugsly]

If you guys had petitioned Adam to bring him back right away, I was going to sue ASR for intentional PTSD brain damage.

I know that 'lol' has been overused on the internet such that no one believes it anymore, but I legit laughed out loud on reading this...

 

[BDWoody]

But why would the bias manifest itself?

Because we are human, and it is part of how the brain functions to get us through each day. If someone claims immunity to bias, it suggests they don't understand it, and the importance of controlling for it.

Bias has no respect for credentials...

 

[Blumlein 88]

Because we are human, and it is part of how the brain functions to get us through each day. If someone claims immunity to bias, it suggests they don't understand it, and the importance of controlling for it.

Bias has no respect for credentials...

You took the exact words out of my mouth.

 

[Kane1972]

Because we are human, and it is part of how the brain functions to get us through each day. If someone claims immunity to bias, it suggests they don't understand it, and the importance of controlling for it.

Bias has no respect for credentials...

Oh no, of course we all have bias, often based on preconceived ideas or previous experience of the same brand etc. I'm just wondering if you have no expectation, the brand is new to you and everyone has been saying "this thing is amazing", why would you think "I like everything better about this new device, apart from the high end". What has lead to that bias?

 

[BDWoody]

Oh no, of course we all have bias, often based on preconceived ideas or previous experience of the same brand etc. I'm just wondering if you have no expectation, the brand is new to you and everyone has been saying "this thing is amazing", why would you think "I like everything better about this new device, apart from the high end". What has lead to that bias?

You refer to bias as if its one thing.

 

[Kane1972]

You refer to bias as if its one thing.

View attachment 177132

So do you discount the idea that test tones and music are very different and so measuring tones is not the same as measuring music? I thought that was a good point by this electrical engineer.

Also, out of curiosity, I assume you believe the tech surpassed our hearing ability years ago? If so, do you still update your DAC etc for better specs that are actually worthless in terms of sound reproduction?

Btw, I had someone tell me the Topping E30 (which I use) was too grainy for them, so they sold it. I then asked them what they believed caused that and if they believed that should be able to be measured, but they responded "not everything can be measured" and began to bash this site etc. I found myself on the other side of the argument on that occasion. I'm certainly not evangelical either way.

 

[BDWoody]

So do you discount the idea that test tones and music are very different and so measuring tones is not the same as measuring music? I thought that was a good point by this electrical engineer.

The multitone is about the best we have, and this is where I defer to those who know better than I do. For me to believe it isn't adequate, someone would need to demonstrate that there is more needed to characterize the device, through listening test results that refute the existing suite of measurements as being 'good enough.'

Also, out of curiosity, I assume you believe the tech surpassed our hearing ability years ago? If so, do you still update your DAC etc for better specs that

No. After I tested myself on an expensive Auralic, I sent it back and bought a bunch of speakers. I have a mix of older and newer, and none remove more veils than any other.

 

[Blumlein 88]

You're absolutely right, and in fact these days my default answer to friends vis a vis gear used to create rather than playback is "if it inspires you, and won't make you homeless, do it." It does open interesting conversation as to the benefit of sighted bias in the creative process.

A really close friend recently spent WAY too much because he "had to" have to the new Carbon interface. He really cannot afford this so I tried to explain UA or RME can give more for less (spec-wise, the protools offload is obviously another category). His response: "but none of UA's stuff inspires me.". So by believing the Carbon is audibly superior, another 45 minutes of original music was brought into the world and it's kind of hard to argue with that particular end result.

As objectivists obviously we can claim, and almost certainly prove, that audibly speaking the same result could be had with a lower price interface but when someone is really feeling it, pulling out the SINAD graphs feels like a total downer. Artistry is sort of faith-based to begin with: right or wrong, I believe my message so strongly that I have to get it out. Too much objectivity on that side of the house seems antithetical

There is something to be said for something that inspires you vs gear that doesn't. Even if its not true the belief has value in such a circumstance.

 

[Vintagear73]

If all 10 units have specs like these, your differences are imagined due to sighted bias or the result of variations elsewhere in your signal chain. This particular device doesn't sound like anything at all.

You will never convince recording and mastering engineers that all converters that measure more or less equally sound the same. Even ones who are electrical engineers as well, who use measurements themselves when building or modifying equipment will tell you that for instance the high end can sound different when changing components, even when there is nothing in the measurements to suggest the high frequency response has changed.

I'm talking about it.
Some devices may have perfect specifications on paper, but end up sounding bad.
This measurement test is OK here, but a comparison with other and similar devices and a description of how the test author hears it would mean a lot more.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I'm talking about it.
Some devices may have perfect specifications on paper, but end up sounding bad.
This measurement test is OK here, but a comparison with other and similar devices and a description of how the test author hears it would mean a lot more.

No it would not mean more. Perfect specs would not sound at all.

 

[tifune]

I'm talking about it.
Some devices may have perfect specifications on paper, but end up sounding bad.
This measurement test is OK here, but a comparison with other and similar devices and a description of how the test author hears it would mean a lot more.

Can you name a few? There's only one I can think of around these parts: a DAC that had a strange buffer design which ostensibly had no rational purpose other than to measure well, but even then the difference was inaudible. Sorry I can't remember the exact one, I tried going back through the reviews but there's just so. damn. many. DACs. I'm pretty sure it was SMSL, but also can't backup my claim with a link

Another such criticism Ive heard is that Topping NFCA designs "measure well but sound bad." Big surprise when I asked for elaboration, I got this Hegel video in response:

I admit, I didn't even watch it because Darko. And, I don't like watching YouTube lectures (I have to stop my music to hear them and reading is SO much faster). Not very open minded of me, but if there's any specific models you can think of I'd love to *read* about them?

 

[Vintagear73]

Can you name a few? There's only one I can think of around these parts: a DAC that had a strange buffer design which ostensibly had no rational purpose other than to measure well, but even then the difference was inaudible. Sorry I can't remember the exact one, I tried going back through the reviews but there's just so. damn. many. DACs. I'm pretty sure it was SMSL, but also can't backup my claim with a link

Another such criticism Ive heard is that Topping NFCA designs "measure well but sound bad." Big surprise when I asked for elaboration, I got this Hegel video in response:

I admit, I didn't even watch it because Darko. And, I don't like watching YouTube lectures (I have to stop my music to hear them and reading is SO much faster). Not very open minded of me, but if there's any specific models you can think of I'd love to *read* about them?

There is not only about DAC. DAC is one side of story, and design around DAC is another.
I do not need Youtube. I am 59 years old, and I have heard many different audio devices in my life, from consumer to Hi End.

 

[tifune]

There is not only about DAC. DAC is one side of story, and design around DAC is another.
I do not need Youtube. I am 59 years old, and I have heard many different audio devices in my life, from consumer to Hi End.

Ok, so does that mean you don't remember any specific DACs that measure well but sound bad?

 

[Vintagear73]

Ok, so does that mean you don't remember any specific DACs that measure well but sound bad?

You obviously do not understand the essence of the problem. DAC is not the only factor involved in the final sound. The complete design of the device is important, from the power supply, clock, analog part, etc. And ultimately a certain listening experience.

 

[tifune]

You obviously do not understand the essence of the problem. DAC is not the only factor involved in the final sound. The complete design of the device is important, from the power supply, clock, analog part, etc. And ultimately a certain listening experience.

Ok, so you don't recall the model # of any complete design that measures well but sounds bad?

 

[BDWoody]

You obviously do not understand the essence of the problem. DAC is not the only factor involved in the final sound. The complete design of the device is important, from the power supply, clock, analog part, etc. And ultimately a certain listening experience.

He may not be the one who misunderstands...

That is all included in the analog output, which is what is actually measured. Our host doesn't open up the box and break out the chip...he is measuring the output where you plug in your cables.

 

[Deleted member 23982]

Your continued Trolling is getting tiring. I have issued you a two week forum Ban! When and if you return, this behavior must cease. Enjoy your vacation!

well, thanks for open my eyes sooner than later what this forum really is, because apparently having a own opinion counts as "trolling" lol

12. You guys run a cult here where you only go by measurements and no one is allowed to disagree.

yea no questions left.

maybe i will keep using this forum but probably just for what its good, and only that, to get some measurements (which -atleast- compare devices somewhat)

Edit:
and i have to say this, the most annoying thing about this is that i feel sorry for all newbies that rely on your "sciences" stuff without testing stuff themself
for me it doesnt really matter because i know what differences are there/real and will probably just use "mainly" other forums now...