Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[pkane]

I understand that scientifically testing a measuring help us to improve devices, but to think it superspeed the listening experience in audio devices, is not understanding what is music

Don’t know why you’d say that to me. Of course I listen to my devices! I don’t find absolute pitch a requirement for that or for evaluating the accuracy of the devices. My measurement instruments have a much more precise pitch determination than any human, and can do this with thousands of tones combined in one brief snippet of sound, with precision well beyond anything you or I can do.

 

[Killingbeans]

The ego of men.

If you tell a dude that the Hobby-Eberly telescope is better at seeing objects in the night sky than he is, he'll probably not disagree, if he has any sense of reason.

Tell an audiophile that an audio analyzer is better at detecting differences in sound than his hearing, and then... well, all logic goes out the window.

 

[fabien32]

Not sure what you are referring to here? Black holes?

I wasn't referring to black holes. I was talking about two different instance, 1 was when light go through a small hole, there is a quantum effect that cause the light to change direction randomly. 2 I was taking about certain black objects that absorb the light, and that's in contradiction to the laws of thermodynamic. Something you clearly know nothing about. Opening google and reading about it just to argue with someone, just demonstrate that you don't care about the truth.

 

[fabien32]

The ego of men.

If you tell a dude that the Hobby-Eberly telescope is better at seeing objects in the night sky than he is, he'll probably not disagree, if he has any sense of reason.

Tell an audiophile that an audio analyzer is better at detecting differences in sound than his hearing, and then... well, all logic goes out the window.

Nothing to do with ego, in music numbers are irrelevant from a certain point. You Can have two DACs that measured exactly the same, but one sound better than the other.

 

[SIY]

Nothing to do with ego, in music numbers are irrelevant from a certain point. You Can have two DACs that measured exactly the same, but one sound better than the other.

Can you give a specific example?

 

[fabien32]

Can you give a specific example?

There are few devices that have two versions one run on an akm Chip and one ess. Both measure the same, and yet they sound completely different

 

[Killingbeans]

Let me guess: ESS = Cold and analytical. AKM = Soft and velvety.

Nothing to do with ego, in music numbers are irrelevant from a certain point. You Can have two DACs that measured exactly the same, but one sound better than the other.

Even when you do a test for difference that minimizes the influence of bias?

 

[fabien32]

Even when you do a test for difference that minimizes the influence of bias?

Of course

 

[Blumlein 88]

Of course

Uh-huh!

I'll just be very straightforward and say I don't believe you. If the output is identical, then where is the difference in sound coming from? To sound different something has to be different in the signal if the signal matters.

 

[fabien32]

Who said that the output is the same? I said that the measurements are the same! Big difference. The All point of this discussion is that machine can't measure everything, just like when you measure a quant.

Uncertainty Principle
the uncertainty principle states that the position and velocity cannot both be measured,exactly, at the same time

uncertainty principle derives from the measurement problem, the intimate connection between the wave and particle nature of quantum objects

In other words, when you measure sound you lose something in the process.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Who said that the output is the same? I said that the measurements are the same! Big difference. The All point of this discussion is that machine can't measure everything, just like when you measure a quant.

Uncertainty Principle
the uncertainty principle states that the position and velocity cannot both be measured,exactly, at the same time

uncertainty principle derives from the measurement problem, the intimate connection between the wave and particle nature of quantum objects

In other words, when you measure sound you lose something in the process.

The uncertainty principle has nothing to do with sound. Like SIY mentioned earlier today.
Rule of thumb which has, so far, been 100% correct: as soon as quantum mechanics is mentioned in an audio discussion, you can be certain that you're dealing with a shyster or someone who truly understands no physics. Or both.

If you want to compare some ridiculously over simplified measurements then maybe. But then you are just misleading to take that approach.

Give us a device example using the AKM, and ESS chips you mentioned and how you determined they sound completely different.

 

[SIY]

There are few devices that have two versions one run on an akm Chip and one ess. Both measure the same, and yet they sound completely different

Specific example, please. That's just another vague handwave. Name two DACs, specific ones, which measure the same and have been demonstrated to sound different.

 

[Vlach]

Is it possible for two DACs with identical measurements and 100% volume-matched to sound different in terms of vocal clarity or soundstage depth for example?

 

[SIY]

Is it possible for two DACs with identical measurements and 100% volume-matched to sound different in terms of vocal clarity or soundstage depth for example?

AFAIK, no-one has ever demonstrated any difference between any two pieces of electronics, DAC or otherwise, with identical (or even similar) measurements. @fabien32 claims that there is, but we're still waiting on any evidence.

 

[Killingbeans]

Is it possible for two DACs with identical measurements and 100% volume-matched to sound different in terms of vocal clarity or soundstage depth for example?

If the test is blind? Highly doubtful.

If cognitive bias is allowed to influence the results? Absolutely.

 

[Vlach]

If the test is blind? Highly doubtful.

But not impossible?

 

[SIY]

But not impossible?

In the same sense that Russell's Teapot is possible.

 

[Vlach]

In the same sense that Russell's Teapot is possible.

What about different components and parts, can they affect the sound even if measuring the same, volume-matched, blind, after breakfast and before 10 AM?

 

[SIY]

What about different components and parts, can they affect the sound even if measuring the same, volume-matched, blind, after breakfast and before 10 AM?

For the teapot?

 

[Killingbeans]

But not impossible?

Sure. Same way as it's possible to win the lottery 50 times in row.

It wouldn't make any sense. There's nowhere for the information about vocal clarity or soundstage depth to hide.