Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Dunring]

Actually, you might also want to think about the other differences, from warranty and support through build quality, features and ergonomics, as well. In fact, with electronics, those may be more important, and more obvious.

Yes things like shipping back to a factory in China for warranty work which can cost half the price of the item. JDS or Schiit are just post office rates without customs and the rest to go through. I used to buy thinking my credit card would double the warranty, until I read the fine print. It's only if I get a repair estimate first from an authorized service center. For Topping or SMSL they don't have any of those here in the U.S. for out of warranty repairs. Even Hifiman will just offer 20 percent off a new pair (if you send them the broken one, you pay shipping), but they won't repair many models aren't in production. Allstate has the Squaretrade warranty you can buy, but it's expensive and if you've seen their horrendous feedback rating, it's not that likely they'll handle it well.
I'm buying and selling audio equipment all the time, and there's some models I won't touch anymore. The number of "parts only not working" Drop THX 789 is madness. I know they sold a lot of them, but never seen so many listed in protection mode on eBay. After the Topping L30 recall debacle where dealers were asking people to smash them with a hammer and send in a picture of it...omg. JDS Labs is worth it just for the support...

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

Yes things like shipping back to a factory in China for warranty work which can cost half the price of the item. JDS or Schiit are just post office rates without customs and the rest to go through. I used to buy thinking my credit card would double the warranty, until I read the fine print. It's only if I get a repair estimate first from an authorized service center. For Topping or SMSL they don't have any of those here in the U.S. for out of warranty repairs. Even Hifiman will just offer 20 percent off a new pair (if you send them the broken one, you pay shipping), but they won't repair many models aren't in production. Allstate has the Squaretrade warranty you can buy, but it's expensive and if you've seen their horrendous feedback rating, it's not that likely they'll handle it well.
I'm buying and selling audio equipment all the time, and there's some models I won't touch anymore. The number of "parts only not working" Drop THX 789 is madness. I know they sold a lot of them, but never seen so many listed in protection mode on eBay. After the Topping L30 recall debacle where dealers were asking people to smash them with a hammer and send in a picture of it...omg. JDS Labs is worth it just for the support...

Very good point.
So in the UK, if a Cambridge DAC reviewed well here, for instance. Would any problem be "fixed", in the UK? Or, might it need to go back to China, or wherever it is actually made? Possibly my existing Qutest is made in the UK, but I would certainly look to save money on any replacement.

 

[Deleted member 21726]

There's pretty big difference in soundquality between Violectric Chronos and RME. Does measurements explain anything?
Headphones are Grado Hemps, easy to drive.

Measurements & Review of Violectric Chronos DAC/HPAmp - L7Audiolab

便携设备 周围朋友圈里面没什么人购买……我也就一直没有逮到测的机会。直到前两天在狗鞭的群里一个大佬说自己有 Violectric Chronos 我赶紧典着脸凑过去：大佬，这个以把借来测一下…… 于是就拿到了这货：

www.l7audiolab.com

 

[xaviescacs]

There's pretty big difference in soundquality between Violectric Chronos and RME. Does measurements explain anything?
Headphones are Grado Hemps, easy to drive.

Measurements & Review of Violectric Chronos DAC/HPAmp - L7Audiolab

便携设备 周围朋友圈里面没什么人购买……我也就一直没有逮到测的机会。直到前两天在狗鞭的群里一个大佬说自己有 Violectric Chronos 我赶紧典着脸凑过去：大佬，这个以把借来测一下…… 于是就拿到了这货：

www.l7audiolab.com

Define "soundquality".

 

[Deleted member 21726]

Define "soundquality".

Sounquality to me is that what i hear and feel.

Differences of size of the soundstage, the placement of things on the stereo base, the impression of depth, the fullness and dynamism of the midrange. The formation of the soloist's voices, the tones/tightness of the bass.
Just to name a few.

These are first impressions, just a few hours of listening done. In a long run there's much more to come i know that from experience.

 

[Trell]

Sounquality to me is that what i hear and feel.

Differences of size of the soundstage, the placement of things on the stereo base, the impression of depth, the fullness and dynamism of the midrange. The formation of the soloist's voices, the tones/tightness of the bass.
Just to name a few.

These are first impressions, just a few hours of listening done. In a long run there's much more to come i know that from experience.

Have you disabled any enabled DSP on the RME? You can see what you’ve enabled on the status screen.

Also, did you level match when testing?

 

[Deleted member 21726]

Have you disabled any enabled DSP on the RME? You can see what you’ve enabled on the status screen.

Also, did you level match when testing?

RME isn't doing anything to signal. There's no EQ, bass/treble e.g. in use.
Level matching isn't relevant here; differences are so big.
I have listened Violectric for months, it's very easy to hear differences that way. When one component in chain is replaced after long period. Auditory memory plays a big role when finding sonic differences. We humans have very good auditory memory.

There's nothing mystical here, sound is simply different between those two amps.
I just wondered that does the measurements show anything.

 

[xaviescacs]

Sounquality to me is that what i hear and feel.

Differences of size of the soundstage, the placement of things on the stereo base, the impression of depth, the fullness and dynamism of the midrange. The formation of the soloist's voices, the tones/tightness of the bass.
Just to name a few.

These are first impressions, just a few hours of listening done. In a long run there's much more to come i know that from experience.

I would start by following @Trell's suggetsion, that is no EQ no loudness, etc. and then make also sure that filter is the same on both, or at least not very different, the default filter of both should be ok.

The next step is level match, that is being sure that you can't tell both devices apart just because there is a volume difference. You can do it electrically with a simple multimeter or by playing pink noise on both devices and changing the volume on one until you can't tell them apart.

Once there you can do a listening test on your own, but if you can have someone exchanging devices for you it would be more much reliable as then

Bear in mind that the RME is much more powerful and the Chronos is intended for portable devices, so I would do the test with an IEM, to be sure the chronos doesn't run out of power.

 

[xaviescacs]

Level matching isn't relevant here; differences are so big.

We percieve level differences as sound quality differences. Level matching is mandatory if you want to be honest with yourself.

 

[Veri]

Auditory memory plays a big role when finding sonic differences. We humans have very good auditory memory.

No. Superhumans, maybe. Humans? No. Don't flatter yourself.

 

[Deleted member 21726]

This is clearly wrong place for me to discuss audio.

Sorry for inconvenience.

 

[Jimbob54]

There's pretty big difference in soundquality between Violectric Chronos and RME. Does measurements explain anything?
Headphones are Grado Hemps, easy to drive.

Measurements & Review of Violectric Chronos DAC/HPAmp - L7Audiolab

便携设备 周围朋友圈里面没什么人购买……我也就一直没有逮到测的机会。直到前两天在狗鞭的群里一个大佬说自己有 Violectric Chronos 我赶紧典着脸凑过去：大佬，这个以把借来测一下…… 于是就拿到了这货：

www.l7audiolab.com

Which do you think is better? If there are actual differences then the right measurements should show that.

 

[xaviescacs]

This is clearly wrong place for me to discuss audio.

Sorry for inconvenience.

Ok...

What did you expect from folks here? Anyone listening to different devices (or the same device) without any control will hear differences each try, but that doesn't mean they do exist outside one's brain.

Also, you can send the device to amir to see how it performs. He has an RME too and I'm sure he will perform an AB test with both if you ask him.

 

[Deleted member 21726]

Which do you think is better? If there are actual differences then the right measurements should show that.

RME is clearly better for my ears.
Who says which are the right measurements? Do we even have all the right measurements today? I don't think we have, beacause there's audible differences even measurement data shows (almost) no differences.
Despite that, what a few experts here are shouting.

And I can honestly say that I probably couldn't tell the difference between lossless and AAC in Apple enviroment.
There's measured clear difference though.
But sonic differences with amps, cd-players and cables are very clear and very system related.

But this is enough for and from me, have a good day all.

Peace.

 

[Trell]

This is clearly wrong place for me to discuss audio.

Sorry for inconvenience.

But we are discussing audio and trying to find out why you think you hear clear differences.

I’ve read posts by a user claiming hearing obvious differences and that turned out to be him having enabled mono. Thus my recommendation to verify that DSP is disabled, and @xaviescacs suggestion to check filters used is a good one too.

Do note that you’ve to check for DSP enabled on the RME when headphones are plugged in as that is per output.

You can see the status screen on the RME by pressing the upper right knob one or more times when you see the bar graphs for frequencies.

 

[Deleted member 21726]

But we are discussing audio and trying to find out why you think you hear clear differences.

I’ve read posts by a user claiming hearing obvious differences and that turned out to be him having enabled mono. Thus my recommendation to verify that DSP is disabled, and @xaviescacs suggestion to check filters used is a good one too.

Do note that you’ve to check for DSP enabled on the RME when headphones are plugged in as that is per output.

You can see the status screen on the RME by pressing the upper right knob one or more times when you see the bar graphs for frequencies.

I am very well aware all of these, and all were of course checked before i even made first listening with RME.
35 years with audio has teached me something.

 

[Trell]

I am very well aware all of these, and all were of course checked before i even made first listening with RME.
35 years with audio has teached me something.

How are we supposed to know your background and what you’ve checked, just based upon your posts? So we check.

And then you write this later on:

And I can honestly say that I probably couldn't tell the difference between lossless and AAC in Apple enviroment.
There's measured clear difference though.
But sonic differences with amps, cd-players and cables are very clear and very system related.

Really? How are those systems setup for your to hear this?

 

[Deleted member 21726]

How are we supposed to know your background and what you’ve checked, just based upon your posts? So we check.

And then you write this later on:



Really? How are those systems setup for your to hear this?

I'm sorry but I simply don't have energy and time for this and I don't feel obligated.
You have to find out those things yourself through your own hobby, if you are interested.

We all do things differently, my own philosophy doesn't really fit here so it seems.

 

[Willem]

The mindset here is scientific. That means we insist on proper method.
As for the RME DAC, measurements show that it is sonically perfect, and listening tests have not shown any issues either.

 

[Trell]

I'm sorry but I simply don't have energy and time for this and I don't feel obligated.
You have to find out those things yourself through your own hobby, if you are interested.

We all do things differently, my own philosophy doesn't really fit here so it seems.

Always the same when people are asked to backup their claims somehow.

You might believe that you hear clear differences but my guess is that you’ve done the tests improperly.