Magnepan LRS Speaker Review

[Saturn94]

We agree more than you think. It’s possible I think more speaker preferences are visible in measurements than you do. Also, I think the idea that there is some unknown unmeasurable quality of speakers is bollocks. The speaker-room interaction is complex but not immeasurable. I also think that if you start with a well-measuring speaker you can get to your preferences more reliably in a variety of living spaces.

Are you saying, for instance, that the bass that is deficient in LRS measurements is actually present (I don’t think so, but asking anyway)?

I agree there is no unmeasurable magic going on. But with near infinite variations of rooms/setups/preferences, it’s difficult at best to just use measurements to predict if one will be happy a particular set of speakers.

I get what you are saying about using measurements to narrow one’s choices, but if I had placed so much emphasis on speaker measurements to narrow my choices when I was shopping (and saw Amir’s LRS review), I would have missed out on the greatly enjoyable setup I’ve been enjoying since 2019.

Concerning bass, I‘m a big proponent of using a great, well set up sub with most any speaker, so lack of low bass wasn’t a big concern when I was considering Maggies. When I received my LRS, out of curiosity I ran them full range without the sub to see how they would do on their own. I was quite surprised how much bass they did have (to about 50hz?). Casual listening to a variety of music was quite satisfying. I certainly wouldn’t describe them as deficient in my setup. Of course with a great sub, performance is elevated to an entirely different level. In my experience, taking the bulk of bass duties away from the mains also improves the sound of the mains (lower distortion).

 

[Saturn94]

Yes, I thought you were still in denial.

You are sceptical for the same reason voiced by etierevad:

Since the late 1990s enough research work has been done so that there is no longer a ‘disconnect’ between speaker measurements and listener preferences based on the sound waves alone. I commend to you the book, Sound Reproduction by Dr F E Toole.

As a result of this research, a well-informed assessment of the Klippel’s ‘spinorama’ measurements will correlate very nicely with how well that speaker is rated in controlled listening tests (controlled to eliminate non-sonic factors from influencing the listener’s mind, so the listener is assessing the speaker’s sound waves themselves).

The reason this thread is littered with comments along the line, “but it sounds great to me at home”, is because people are performing uncontrolled listening ‘tests’, which means they are listening to their own bias more than to the sound waves themselves. Hence my earlier post. The problem is the poor listening test, not the inadequacy of measurements.

cheers

Sure, speaker measurements can possibly identify which speakers are technically superior. But they sometimes fail at identifying what I will prefer.

Regarding “…people are performing uncontrolled listening ‘tests’…”, of course we are! But how many of us listen/enjoy our systems in a controlled test environment? I’m guessing not many.

It seems so many here are so consumed with pursuing technical perfection that they forget to just enjoy!

Back to enjoying my oh so inferior Maggies.

 

[ahofer]

Sure, speaker measurements can possibly identify which speakers are technically superior. But they sometimes fail at identifying what I will prefer.

My guess is, with some work, you will be able to identify the signature of what you prefer in the measurements.

 

[Newman]

Sure, speaker measurements can possibly identify which speakers are technically superior.

No, they are identifying from which speakers listeners will prefer the sound waves. Including you!

Back to enjoying my oh so inferior Maggies.

Yep, simple bias.

 

[Reed]

This whole subject generally puts me off of ASR for a few days. That a group of folks like “the sound” of Magnepans is unacceptable to many here and they just can’t deal with it. Yep, it’s a science site but I’m in that group that says, yes, this is a great way to make sense of why a speaker sounds a certain way, but that doesn’t capture everything.

Over the past seven years, I’ve had KEF, Magnepan and now Genelec in my small listening room. My Revels are now in the 5.1 downstairs. So a selection of speakers that many here agree on. And it’s all been on an NAD C653 pre/DAC with Dirac. And I’m running a REL sub because none of these are full range floorstanders. I measured everything at MLP with Dirac and on occasion, REW. I applied the same Harman curve to all. And they all sound different because they engage and interact with the room differently, even using the same curve. They also interact with my musical preferences differently. I’m a jazz, future soul and ambient guy. I like a lot of spaciousness. I want the speakers to disappear. And I listen at relatively low volumes, maybe 75db?

After several years I sold the Maggies for the Genelec and have no regrets. But the Maggies (MMGII) were great too, they just have really unique attributes. The head in vice effect is real. You have to experiment with positioning for about a year, stands, etc.. But the difference in scale is where you get it. And this makes it an excellent late night speaker. Virtually no sidewall reflections so you can push them close to side walls. They're cool and they sound big. But get in the way in a small room. I had to use a big hot Schiit amp. And I just wanted to minimize. The small Genelec overachieves in delivering all my preferences. The narrow dispersion KEF was my least favorite.

Maggies interact with rooms much differently than a Klippel machine and that difference is what some folks prefer. It‘s okay.

 

[thewas]

The narrow dispersion KEF was my least favorite.

But the Maggies have even narrower dispersion.

Maggies interact with rooms much differently than a Klippel machine and that difference is what some folks prefer. It‘s okay.

The Klippel NFS is agnostic of the sound source measured, it is just our interpretations of its measurement results that often lack full understanding.

 

[john65b]

I have always like Maggies for what they do well...but i would not trash all maggies due to the LRS review...

I much prefer Electrostatics and Planar speakers over conventional types...

I have owned just about all the maggies...MMG, MMGW, SMG, MG1.4, MG2.5r, MG2.7, MG-IIIa, MG3.3r, MG3.5r, MG3,6r. MG20.1r and also Tympani T-ID and Tympani T-IVa. I have heard the LRS and they were just OK to me....I much prefer the higher end Magnepans with full size ribbon tweeters rather than the Quasi Ribbon that are on the lesser Maggies...

The best Magnepan value for the money is the MGIIIa - they are a bit old, but easily restorable...they have full length ribbon tweeters and can be had for under $500. Regluing or rewiring the bass/mid panels is easy, but time consuming... and bad ribbon tweeters units can be bought from Magnepan for around $250 (?) each with the core return...

But the best Magnepan speakers I ever had were my Tympani T-IVa (incredible bass slam), followed by the MG20.1, but again these were not $650 speakers. The T-IVa were just too huge for my room, and the MG20.1 were not as "repair friendly" as I would like, as they were basically two MG3.6r mid/woofer panels sandwiched together for true Push Pull (all other maggies are single ended - magnets only on one side of diaphragm)... but the MG3 series were perfect in price / performance.

They are not for everyone....one of my Audio friends hates all Maggies, he says they dont sound natural...it is weird that he really does like my Eminent Technology LFT-VI (same planar technology as Magnepan, but true Push Pull).

I only have my Tympani T-ID left, (needs a tweeter voicecoil rewire). I would have no issues going back to the MG3 series...

 

[Observer]

I have always like Maggies for what they do well...but i would not trash all maggies due to the LRS review...

I much prefer Electrostatics and Planar speakers over conventional types...

I have owned just about all the maggies...MMG, MMGW, SMG, MG1.4, MG2.5r, MG2.7, MG-IIIa, MG3.3r, MG3.5r, MG3,6r. MG20.1r and also Tympani T-ID and Tympani T-IVa. I have heard the LRS and they were just OK to me....I much prefer the higher end Magnepans with full size ribbon tweeters rather than the Quasi Ribbon that are on the lesser Maggies...

The best Magnepan value for the money is the MGIIIa - they are a bit old, but easily restorable...they have full length ribbon tweeters and can be had for under $500. Regluing or rewiring the bass/mid panels is easy, but time consuming... and bad ribbon tweeters units can be bought from Magnepan for around $250 (?) each with the core return...

But the best Magnepan speakers I ever had were my Tympani T-IVa (incredible bass slam), followed by the MG20.1, but again these were not $650 speakers. The T-IVa were just too huge for my room, and the MG20.1 were not as "repair friendly" as I would like, as they were basically two MG3.6r mid/woofer panels sandwiched together for true Push Pull (all other maggies are single ended - magnets only on one side of diaphragm)... but the MG3 series were perfect in price / performance.

They are not for everyone....one of my Audio friends hates all Maggies, he says they dont sound natural...it is weird that he really does like my Eminent Technology LFT-VI (same planar technology as Magnepan, but true Push Pull).

I only have my Tympani T-ID left, (needs a tweeter voicecoil rewire). I would have no issues going back to the MG3 series...

There is nothing wrong with LRS, if you follow simple guidelines. LRS is not for very big room (then you need a bigger panel). It works nice in 26 m2 room if you setup them right and at least 70cm from front wall. Setup need some time and clean good power, but is not flawed speaker( as the author of review claim ).
If room size and setup is Ok and you still not have normal bass response, then amp is probably the problem. XTZ A2 300 will drive them nice on the budget/575 € ( > 400W/2.7 OHM). Here is REW measurement of LRS in the room from listening position, nothing is wrong there.

 

[MarnixM]

I own a set of LRS+ maggies. Very pleased with them, but could somebody explain to me why the buttons on the left speaker differ from the right?

 

[Newman]

Here is REW measurement of LRS in the room from listening position, nothing is wrong there.

Except that in room measurements hide a multitude of sins….

 

[Observer]

Except that in room measurements hide a multitude of sins….

At the end, every sold speaker got stuck in some room, and REW measure what owner actually hear there.
Sins are more correlated with box speakers, todays measurement methods are developed around them.

 

[Observer]

I own a set of LRS+ maggies. Very pleased with them, but could somebody explain to me why the buttons on the left speaker differ from the right?

This is normal, they are kind of damping 'buttons' which are there to "de-tune" panels and control/lower resonance.

 

[john65b]

why the buttons on the left speaker differ from the right?

Those buttons are tuning buttons....they should be relatively close in location on all maggies... some have more than one

Here is REW measurement of LRS in the room from listening position, nothing is wrong there.

You obviously used REW for Room Correction. Room Correction can make any speaker "fit better" in any room. Put up a raw graph without Room Correction and it will look a fair bit different...

Also what smoothing did you set? Low-ish (1:2?) smoothing is kinda misleading......

 

[Observer]

Those buttons are tuning buttons....they should be relatively close in location on all maggies... some have more than one


You obviously used REW for Room Correction. Room Correction can make any speaker "fit better" in a room. Put up a raw graph without Room Correction and it will look a fair bit different...

Also what smoothing did you set? Low-ish (1:2?) smoothing is kinda misleading......

I don't use any room correction (no EQ, no DSP), I just don't have them. My amp even don't have tone controls. I was curious how LRS will measure in my room. Before measurement, I setup (change positions) of speakers for a few weeks by ear, then I take this measurement.
Graph is with 1/3 smoothing , suggested by Rew (similar to psyhoacustic smoothing)

 

[john65b]

I read that recommended smoothing is VAR...I never use anything higher than 1:6 as (I beleive) it sugarcoats the results...

From Gerhard Westphalen regarding smoothing:

At the most basic level I look at the frequency response graphs to get a general idea of how a system is behaving. In this case I’m looking at the overall shape of the curve, any large bumps or dips, and where the system rolls off. I find this graph useful for finding dips that may need to be treated. This is mostly a starting point but it’s also useful when moving speakers around the room and trying to find the best spot. When looking at this graph it’s important to set the scale of the Y axis. If the range is too large, anything will look like a flat line. This is one way which many people try to deceive others. The smoothing is also important to set. If it’s set too high then again, anything will look like a flat line. I generally use 1/24 smoothing keeping in mind that many of the fluctuations shown with this smoothing aren’t audible. The psychoacoustic smoothing gives a better idea of what’s audible.

 

[Newman]

At the end, every sold speaker got stuck in some room, and REW measure what owner actually hear there.

Incorrect. What Amir measured more closely correlates with what owners actually hear above the bass. That’s psychoacoustics.

Sins are more correlated with box speakers, todays measurement methods are developed around them.

No, and no. Experts like Toole and Olive have tested panel speakers in listening tests and found that listener preferences correlate to their measurement methods just as much for panel speakers as box speakers.

==

One thing that Amir’s testing of a panel speaker has taught us, is that compared to any box speaker review on this site, there are more myths and nonsense that panel speaker owners have sucked up (from manufacturers and fellow enthusiasts) and are happy to recite as fake facts. A thorough reading of this thread with an open mind prior to posting would have taught them a lot, but no, they just pop in at the end and repeat the myths.

 

[Willem]

there are more myths and nonsense that panel speaker owners have sucked up (from manufacturers and fellow enthusiasts) and are happy to recite as fake facts.

Thanks for being so respectful of a fair number of serious listeners and highly respected professional users such as e.g. Tony Faulkner. I have used Quad electrostats for more than 45 years, and I like their virtues, and have learned to work around their limitations. Yes, they are a different taste, but no speaker is perfect. If they score badly in a poll, that does not mean they are bad in any objective sense, it only means that the people polled share the same taste. To the best of my knowledge the modern Quads have never been measured with a Klippel system, so I would be curious. However, these speakers are so different that there is no obvious reason why the Klippel system should necessarily produce meaningful results for them. Come on, be a bit more curious about the causes of these results.

 

[Observer]

Recommended smoothing is VAR...

Incorrect. What Amir measured more closely correlates with what owners actually hear above the bass. That’s psychoacoustics.

No, and no. Experts like Toole and Olive have tested panel speakers in listening tests and found that listener preferences correlate to their measurement methods just as much for panel speakers as box speakers.

==

One thing that Amir’s testing of a panel speaker has taught us, is that compared to any box speaker review on this site, there are more myths and nonsense that panel speaker owners have sucked up (from manufacturers and fellow enthusiasts) and are happy to recite as fake facts. A thorough reading of this thread with an open mind prior to posting would have taught them a lot, but no, they just pop in at the end and repeat the myths.

And how was measuring LRS started here?
Not by this thread LRS review, but with previous Amir post “How to Measure Magnepan?”
One day you are not sure how to measure panel speaker, few days later your measurement is the reference.
Pure Science!

Btw, my first post here was simple result how LRS measure in adequate room, nothing mythical.

 

[john65b]

OK, Reset here.

I, for one, am not bashing Magnepans. They are excellent speakers. All I am saying is these results do not surprise me, as the LRS is on the lower tier of their offerings. If anyone is totally content with their LRS, great!

But this less than expected LRS review SHOULD NOT dissuade anyone from looking into Maggies....

If it were my $650, I would head straight after a pair of used MGIIIa. The formal (Amir's) analysis of that speaker would be more of interest to me, and offer up the true Magnepan potential...thats all...

 

[NTK]

And how was measuring LRS started here?
Not by this thread LRS review, but with previous Amir post “How to Measure Magnepan?”
One day you are not sure how to measure panel speaker, few days later your measurement is the reference.
Pure Science!

Btw, my first post here was simple result how LRS measure in adequate room, nothing mythical.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you don't understand how the Klippel NFS works instead of purposedly misrepresent Amir's question (link to his thread)

How to Measure Magnepan LRS

Hello everyone. I am getting close to measuring the Magnepan LRS and wanted to get some feedback on how to stand it up for testing. It normally tilts back: It is easiest to measure it as picked as the legs can be horizontal on measurement stand. Second question is what the "tweeter...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Amir had little experience with how typically people setup their Magnepans. He was asking how the LRS should be stood up on his NFS and at what angles people usually listen to their Magnepans, so he can set the appropriate reference axis for his measurements. And he also wondered if he needed to install the tweeter resistor(s).

Amir's questions were not about if the NFS can measure panel speakers.