Living With Linkwitz

[richard12511]

The Orion design is nearly twenty years old now and extensively discussed by Siegfried on his website.
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/orion_challenge.htm
There are a number of trade-offs in the design, but these were all well understood by Linkwitz when he designed them. And Siegfried had already designed numerous open-baffle systems (commercial and DIY) using conventional drivers before the Orion, so he well understood the design landscape and engineering aspects of such.

This particular set of speakers appears butchered and then sent to Danny without the woofers and electronic crossover. So, it's difficult to ascertain what the owners objective and motivation was in this case.

Dave.

Ahh so this is an active speaker that he's making passive? That is strange.

One of the comments is kinda asking about that. His response was something along the lines of ~"all the best speakers in the world use passive crossovers".

 

[jeffbook]

When the Orion design was released in 2002, it was a speaker system that offered outstanding performance in a DIY package that was the better or equal to systems costing much more than the build cost of the Orion., including the cost of multichannel amps required for the Orion. In the intervening years prior to his passing in 2018, SIegfried released two additional designs that surpassed the performance of the Orion, both of which were considerably less expensive to build than the Orion, Namely the LX521 and the LXmini, when the LXmini was paired with either properly designed sealed box subwoofers or open baffle subs.

I can't fathom GR Research's motive to "measure" and review the performance of an incomplete set of Orion speakers in 2020, 18 years after their design. To do this would seem to indicate to me that Danny is a total buffoon who has no interest in conducting any type of scientifically sound review of this or any product, including his own. Snake oil of the highest order. Just despicable.

 

[richard12511]

Interesting comment and response around the topic of passive vs active crossovers, particularly "There are pros and cons to each. But again, in the end, the highest levels are reached with passive filters".

From what I understand, active is almost always better. I get why passive speakers are mostly preferred in the world's best consumer speakers, but my (current) belief is that those reasons have more to do with placebo than they do actual sound quality changes. What are the actual pros of passive crossovers, sonically speaking?

 

[q3cpma]

View attachment 80891

Interesting comment and response around the topic of passive vs active crossovers, particularly "There are pros and cons to each. But again, in the end, the highest levels are reached with passive filters".

From what I understand, active is almost always better. I get why passive speakers are mostly preferred in the world's best consumer speakers, but my (current) belief is that those reasons have more to do with placebo than they do actual sound quality changes. What are the actual pros of passive crossovers, sonically speaking?

None except maybe attenuation of tweeter noise if using an underperfoming amp. It's just bullshit and the lack of any argument other than ears should make it obvious; hope you're not just stoking the fire on the dead horse for fun.

 

[Worth Davis]

I owned the orions, they were totally awesome. The 521 are more neutral, but the orions were very exciting and a joy to own. If anyone wants to bring over some 20k+ speakers we can do a shoot out in Houston, i have salk ss8 as well. (Lol edit for onion)

 

[peanuts]

"the top level speaker designs" use passive crossovers because of convenience, not because it is best lol. its cheaper and i suspect they would sell less if audiophiles couldnt tinker around with their amps etc.

 

[Worth Davis]

I owned the orions, they were totally awesome. The 521 are more neutral, but the onions were very exciting and a joy to own. If anyone wants to bring over some 20k+ speakers we can do a shoot out in Houston, i have salk ss8 as well. (Lol edit for onion)

Fyi did an orion vs 521 shootout for the local audiophile society. Was fun, the orions were sold to a member on the spot.

 

[jeffbook]

Fyi did an orion vs 521 shootout for the local audiophile society. Was fun, the orions were sold to a member on the spot.

I trust you kept the LX521 system.

 

[Worth Davis]

I trust you kept the LX521 system.

Oh ya besides being ugly, its a better speaker (521) and now going all dsp instead asp is better as well imo.

 

[yourmando]

Howdy Linkwitz people!

Like many, I benefitted greatly from being local to SL. I had many occasions to visit his home to listen and talk audio. I still use the Orions today, as well as Plutos (both made by local Don Naples at Wood Artistry).

I'm looking for advice from folks with experience with SL's designs, and other controlled directivity designs.

I'm in the process of upgrading my setup for home theater 7.2.6. Orions as mains, plutos as rears. Will likely use 2 sealed Rythmic F18 subs, jointly optimized with Dirac Live Bass Control. I recently purchased 6 active iLoud MTMs for side surrounds/heights & rear heights, as they need to be close to the walls and right around my couch in the near field.

The advice: I'll be adding front L & R "height" speaker's directly above my Orions, ceiling mounted, and an elevated center channel as well. What would complement the Orions well?? (I didn't have a center before because my Orions flank a 133" screen. But if I'm mounting heights, I might as well add an elevated center).

It's possible I can have 5 dipoles in the front!

A seeming no-brainer would be to build 3 LX521 top sections and mount or hang from the ceiling. They would cross over to the dual subs. This could be the ultimate dipole setup.

The deal-breaker is probably just the size--each LX521 top baffle is ~2' high, so together with the Orions I'd have a wall of dipoles. Ceiling is 9', so there is enough space--it would just be visually dominating, like a dipole archway

So, some brainstormed options:

1. DIY a smaller dipole. I could build a baffle as small as 7" wide by 9" high by using a magic 6.5" woofer with extreme volume displacement capability, yet low distortion. The Purifi woofer could be that woofer. That could be crossed to a pair of slim 1" dome tweeters, such as these Bliesma tweeters. They would fit back to back if the baffle is made from 2 layers of 3/4" plywood.

It would sort of be like a mini Orion top baffle, but with less of a jump in driver size, which could help with the crossover (this ultimately led to Linkwitz experimenting w/ a 3 way top baffle, to control directivity better). Or like a 2 way LXMini top with a bigger jump in driver size, but smaller, and closer to the "minimum width baffle" idea (vs the Orion).

+ Would be fun to design and build
+ Pretty confident I could find the optimal crossover for a good directivity match at the crossover region
+ Pretty confident I could get the dipole & driver EQ right
- Unlikely I'll hit upon the optimal baffle shape. I can't easily make and test completely different baffles, so I hope a simple rectangle is optimal
- Unlikely I'll end up with a perfect dipole directivity at every frequency. Though, I'm not sure the Orion or LX Mini do either
- Unlikely I'll end up matching the master in total performance

2. DIY an acoustically small, sealed box, with waveguide. Similar to what SL was experimenting with in 1978, even down to hanging them from the ceiling. The Seas DXT tweeter + the Purifi woofer would be a good match.

+ Pretty confident I can get nearly perfect directivity control from a few 100 hz on up w/ the woofer to waveguide tweeter, because there are several designs that have done this well, such as the Idunn & DXT Mon 182
+ Confident the crossover & EQ should be no problem
- Will have different room reflections, so may not blend as well. Not really sure if this is a problem.
- If there is dipole magic, this won't have it. I think there's a good chance of building an exceptional sealed box speaker, so it would be good for what it is. If I made a dipole, I wouldn't be as sure.

3. The easy way: buy 3 coaxial speakers. The newly released KEF LS50 Meta have exceptional spinoramas. Up there w/ the Genelecs, it seems.
they are quite inexpensive, but only sell in pairs. So I'd buy a pair for L & R heights, and buy a beefy Genelec "Ones" speaker as the center channel ($$$) to keep up w/ the Orion mains. And the coaxial design could be a benefit because these will be mounted at ~30 degree elevation, where vertical directivity perfection could be more important (though I'll make sure to be within the vertical sweet spot either way).

+ Easiest option
+ Kefs are inexpensive
+ Steller Spinorama measurements
+ Tried & true, should be easy to sell if needed
+ Uncertain again about how well they'd mesh w/ the dipoles
- I'd have literally 5 different styles of speakers in my surround setup--Orion, pluto, iLoud MTM, KEF, Genelec...
- Ported. We know SL is not a fan of vented monitors because of poorer transient response/group delay that's not correctable. I'm not sure how audible this is.
- Genelec center would be expensive

I will EQ all the surrounds anyway to the same house curve to match the Orions, so I don't have wild timbre changes.

4. DIY compression horn kit. This is the wild card. A big, efficient horn (Seos 15 oblate spheroid waveguide w/ Celestion compression driver) + 12" woofer could be the center channel. This is way too big to mount in the same location as the above, but it could instead be mounted on the front wall, above the 133" screen, clearing space in the middle of the room. This would be the Diysg HTM-12. L & R heights could be the smaller HT-8, still going above the orions.

+ Super duper cheap
+ As with all/most of the above, stellar directivity control
+ High efficiency so no problem w/ SPL even mounted further back
- Center would be much further away. Phase/delay would be perfect at listening position, but may sound weird when listening from the adjacent room (though not sure how much would come through the center channel for casual listening from a different room while puttering around the house, even w/ Auro 3d upmixing on)
- Still not sure about mixing different directivity designs w/ dipole, or whether it matters
- The main guy is moving and not sure when they'll be in stock again
- Ported

Wow, that's a lot. Thoughts?

A couple photos of the layout. Pretty good for a dipole setup. Almost perfectly symmetrical room. 6' in from front wall. 2' from side walls, but the little bit of side wall is in the null, and the entire side wall between the Orions and LP is completely open to the rooms on both the right and left sides. So the earliest side wall reflections are elmininated (transmuted to much later reflections as they come back from the adjacent rooms).

 

[sfdoddsy]

I used the top section of an Orion for surrounds for many years, basically SLs MT1.

Fairly easy to mount up high too.

 

[yourmando]

I used the top section of an Orion for surrounds for many years, basically SLs MT1.

Fairly easy to mount up high too.

Yes, Orion tops would certainly blend perfectly!

I initially dismissed it because of the very high costs of the Seas Millionaire Millennium tweeter, and I’d need to use 6. That, and the LM521 top is cheaper but considered better. But, in working through my options above, I do get up to some high prices so I should add Orion tops back to the list.

Last night, my wife let me know that she’s be totally fine with 3 LX521 tops above the Orions! Though I do still think it’d look a bit over the top.

For those who’ve heard both—how much better is the LX521 than the Orions? Should I consider replacing my Orions as well?

The main reason I’ve never “upgraded” to LX521 is that I wouldn’t know what to do with the Orions. Probably not a good market for them now. And they sound amazing

I could make full LX521s L & R mains + an extra LX521 top as a center, then use my existing Orion as parts for L & R height tops. And use the Orion dipole woofers as the L&R heights bass, but keep it on the floor, like a split Orion. Hmm...

 

[sfdoddsy]

Depending on your degree of obsessiveness, you wouldn't necessarily need to use Orion drivers.

 

[gab]

You might research the LX521 Hybrid configuration (top portion only sans tweeter) and hang them from your ceiling.

https://oplug-support.org/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=4866

 

[yourmando]

You might research the LX521 Hybrid configuration (top portion only sans tweeter) and hang them from your ceiling.

https://oplug-support.org/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=4866

Awesome. Is Davey @dreite ?

Thanks for the suggestion!

I should have known to check Oplug. I posted a small follow up question in that thread, though I may post my full question there to get more feedback.

I think I’m currently leaning toward something smaller than the lx521 tops as elevated “height” and center channels above my Orions. Just because those 5 dipolies together all in the same plane visually takes up a lot of space in the room. So something like option 1 above (or like Orion tops, which I could change to use only a front tweeter like the cheaper seas DXT and it would have the same 2 drivers as the Grimm Audio speakers, but dipole mid bass).

I’m also still debating dipole or other compact controlled directory designs to go with my current dipoles.

 

[gab]

Awesome. Is Davey @dreite ?

Yes

 

[williamwally]

Lx521 main LCR, Davey hybrid for height channels, cut off top above the full range. Make all the top panels from clear polycarbonate or similar!

 

[yourmando]

Lx521 main LCR, Davey hybrid for height channels, cut off top above the full range. Make all the top panels from clear polycarbonate or similar!

Now that’s thinking “out of the box!”

 

[B&WTube]

Any LXmini owners have theirs really close to the wall? I am actually thinking about building these as wall sconce speakers, but didn’t know how bad that would be. I know against the wall is really never optimal, but that is what I have to work with.

 

[bluefuzz]

I am actually thinking about building these as wall sconce speakers, but didn’t know how bad that would be.

I wouldn't recommend it. The LXminis can survive being a bit less than 60 cm from a side wall but they sound weird if too close to the back wall. I'd say at least a metre from the back wall if possible and preferably more ...

I'd build something else if you need to be close to a wall.