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Linear Phase filter settings. Topping: How we (ASR) can help?

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sajunky

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But that won't affect fundamental frequencies to change. It merely has to do with the amplitude of its harmonics.
It also isn't a 'step' thing either which one would expect when one makes the claim that 3 strings in a pinao which are individually tuned to have a certain relation to create a 'note' would change the frequency.

This can easily be tested by sweeping or slowly wobbling a second frequency slowly around a fixed frequency.
We need such tests. If only the measuring equipment can pick up such small differences in frequencies, but I also see the following problem in a slow sweep method. When a piano key is hit, it sounds always distorted initially, then individual strings tend to synchronise over a short period of time due to the interactions. This is a synchronising phase process, but in result frequency is also being shifted close together. It is only valid when piano is tuned properly. We can't meassure it with a slow sweep, but we can start with a delay, as we are interested in a slow decay part. Or we can generate a steady signal in lab by mixing in high resolution three wave sources.

When piano is detuned this effect do not show. It sounds in dissonance from the beginning to the end. The same happens when sound comes out from D30. Maybe that can be meassured, as is quite steady.
 

SIY

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We need such tests. If only the measuring equipment can pick up such small differences in frequencies, but I also see the following problem in a slow sweep method. When a piano key is hit, it sounds always distorted initially, then individual strings tend to synchronise over a short period of time due to the interactions. This is a synchronising phase process, but in result frequency is also being shifted close together. It is only valid when piano is tuned properly. We can't meassure it with a slow sweep, but we can start with a delay, as we are interested in a slow decay part. Or we can generate a steady signal in lab by mixing in high resolution three wave sources.

When piano is detuned this effect do not show. It sounds in dissonance from the beginning to the end. The same happens when sound comes out from D30. Maybe that can be meassured, as is quite steady.

So do you really have no idea of how the AD and DA processes work or are you just trolling? No third possibility.
 

LF78

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Whe all know about that Topping DSP engine tries to enhance major tones to make it perfectly clean with a perfect frequency response, such settings look well in our measurements, but result is that frequency of individual tones is altered with a bad sonic effect.

So basically you're suggesting that Topping added an additional logic to their DACs specifically to fool measurements, just like Volkswagen did for "Dieselgate".

I think it should be easy to prove it though, just measure SINAD using a frequency different than standard 1 KHz, or measure it with a sweeping tone, or measure it using 2/3/4 different tones at the same time... and see if it makes any difference.
 

SIY

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So basically you're suggesting that Topping added an additional logic to their DACs specifically to fool measurements, just like Volkswagen did for "Dieselgate".

I think it should be easy to prove it though, just measure SINAD using a frequency different than standard 1 KHz, or measure it with a sweeping tone, or measure it using 2/3/4 different tones at the same time... and see if it makes any difference.

It doesn't. The sweeps and multitones are presented in the measurement posts. But of course, this person knows that.
 
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sajunky

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It doesn't. The sweeps and multitones are presented in the measurement posts. But of course, this person knows that.
This person knows, but the person who wrote the above doesn't. Or have an agenda to disturb by shifting attention to the tests which do not bring resolution.
 
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sajunky

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So basically you're suggesting that Topping added an additional logic to their DACs specifically to fool measurements, just like Volkswagen did for "Dieselgate".

I think it should be easy to prove it though, just measure SINAD using a frequency different than standard 1 KHz, or measure it with a sweeping tone, or measure it using 2/3/4 different tones at the same time... and see if it makes any difference.
1. There is no additional logic in the Topping, AFAIK, just inproper filters are deployed. BTW, D30 is not the same as under Amir's tests, having severe cost cuts, but we do not discuss this issue there.

2. You think, but these tones are far, far away to deal with a problem.
 

solderdude

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In all honesty I have seen measurements made by Amir (Schiit stuff I thought I remember) that had high distortion at a specific frequency and low again at a few Hz higher.
Frequencies that shift (or step in small steps) is not possible.
I don't think different filters do this in a different way.
 

daftcombo

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@sajunky , do you have a soundcard to be able to record the output from your Topping D30?
 

solderdude

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a soundcard that can do 192kHz that is.
 

daftcombo

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Do you still not understand? It is a measurement of a pulse response. Topping will produce it well, as engineers know how you measure it.

On the other side, well tuned piano produces two or three semi-independent ~sine waves that naturally tend to synchronise together. From the Topping it comes out in dissonance, like from detuned piano. Whe all know about that Topping DSP engine tries to enhance major tones to make it perfectly clean with a perfect frequency response, such settings look well in our measurements, but result is that frequency of individual tones is altered with a bad sonic effect. Please show us how you would measure it. Before you come out with a clue, maybe it is worth to ask Topping why Linear Phase filter in D30 and DX3 Pro produce harshness and a Minimum Phase filter from the same device do not. Thank you.

The "detuned" sensation you have is probably cause by phase shifts.

I had fun once, putting several 96dB/octave phase shifts in RePhase to fuck the phase. The "beats" sounded detuned and weird.

With which headphones or speakers do you listen? With which player?
 
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sajunky

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In all honesty I have seen measurements made by Amir (Schiit stuff I thought I remember) that had high distortion at a specific frequency and low again at a few Hz higher.
Frequencies that shift (or step in small steps) is not possible.
I don't think different filters do this in a different way.
Story about Schit is bad, and Amir finds many things the others would miss (or not publish). It is probably unrelated here.

Good point. I take your comment about shifting frequencies seriously. My interpretation was perhaps wrong,. You gave me a reason to think again and here is how it happens in nature:

Stage 1, hammer hit strings. Each string resonate with a tone, but it is not a natural frequency. There is a dominant pair of split frequences (a string is divided in two lenghts by a hammer and each part produce their own base frequencies and overtones). The value of these split frequencies is not controlled by the design, generaly there is a big mess at this stage, but nobody cares, as it lasts very short.

Stage 2, hammer bounces back. All strings begin oscilating freely, but frequency of each string is shifted from a natural (tuned) frequency proportionally to the amount of displacement applied by the hammer, it is not he same for each string. We hear an initial dissonance. It is perceived pleasant as it lasts short. If piano is tuned well, all strings form a coupled oscilator synchronising phase, also frequency shifts to a natural on a decay. If this set of strings is not tuned well, strings are unable to form coupled oscilator, we hear it as a detuned piano.

What I hear from Topping D30, it sounds like detuned piano. The initial dissonance is natural, but on the Topping tone is not cleaning up on decay. So you are right - DSP is not shifting frequency, but it registers stage 1 or the beginning of stage 2 and attempts (wrongly) to clean this sound.
 
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sajunky

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I had fun once, putting several 96dB/octave phase shifts in RePhase to fuck the phase. The "beats" sounded detuned and weird.
There are no beats like in detuned strings in piano.

I thought I should go and record the output. but @solderdude gave me an idea what happens. So, for now maybe we should work together on how the test sample should look like, then I would setup another laptop for tests.

For player I have setup with Win7, Topping drivers, Foobar (basic) with WASAPI and ASIO output components, sacd input component, but now (with Icepower 125ASX2) it is set to PCM, as I need control over a volume. Initially I was thinking that Topping may be clipping, so I reduced volume in control panel, but no change and returned to the WASAPI exclusive mode. For ASIO is the same. DSD to WASAPI/ASIO path gives no changes. Standard laptop sound give no enough clarity, so there is no point. Speakers are old Polks RT3, also have Wharfedale Evolution 2-8, but tweeters are to bright in this system path.
 

SIY

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Mechanical analogies don't really work for digital so you need to be careful and very skeptical when you try to make them.
 

Krunok

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Mechanical analogies don't really work for digital so you need to be careful and very skeptical when you try to make them.

Very true. Only car analogies work in every case. :D
 
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BDWoody

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Just little bit slippery on exit. Safe to drive. :)

As long as I keep the steam boiler up to proper pressure, it does ok...
 
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