-
WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
Lets talk cables
- Thread starter palamudin
- Start date
Ok, you got away with that one!
I can maybe imagine such cable having a drop in freq response after say 20GHz, but hardly a tilt at 20kHz or below, but your answer is still valid. And how about "tighter bass"?
Fitzcaraldo215
Major Contributor
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2016
- Messages
- 1,440
- Likes
- 634
Much more data would help. But, first, there is the question of just how much sonic difference do cables make at all?I totally agree that it would be much better to have the data available, not only for cables but for amplifiers and speakers as well.
Add some lectures about basic calculations and then people would be able to have at least an approximate impression about the effects when combining cables and devices.
Or did he argue that way _because_ he made some measurements and didn´t find a correlation and therefore thought it must be something different?
Basically it is just a hypothesis that RLC difference are the main cause (if an effect overall exists) and i´m not aware of any hard data to back it.
Which is a kind of argument that imo doesn´t make sense. Does it mean that quality doesn´t matter if complexity isn´t _that_ high? Or does it mean that high quality is guaranteed my some "magic" because it is so easy to reach that level? Not "falling apart" isn´t a synonym for "high quality" at least in my book. High quality means to meet consistently, reliable the specs in every detail.
As we were discussing triboelectric effects see for example the attached table for different materials and differently handled materials.
I think the consequences are quite obvious. Not to mention other parameters down the line like twisting, shield coverage, shield connections, solder processes and so on.
As usual i´ve some problems with the descriptors, "fancy" isn´t a reasonable electrotechnical category, and that´s a bit surprising as i wrote about some basic reasons why you shouldn´t underestimate the role of "mains cabling" given that quite often a whole system is involved, means several devices working together in an analog reproduction system.
I can´t disagree (nor agree) to your assertion of the "just fine working power cords" but i assume that you haven´t done any controlled listening tests ?
"View attachment 13150
(source: A.R. Akande and J. Lowell, Charge transfer in metal/polymer contacts, Journal of Physics D: Applied Physics, Volume 20, Issue 5, pp. 565-578 (1987) )
Tube lovers have to be more careful because of the impedance characteristics of that type of electronics. But, with solid state, it is hardly a problem. Yes, also MM phono leads can also cause loading issues. Long cable lengths can also be problematical. Electrical theory is quite adequate to describe these response issues in terms of LRC, and it has been done countless times if you will only take a look around.
But, most of those arguments are not burning issues these days because the subjective sonic impact of cables is so vanishingly small to most audiophiles who are honest with themselves. Believe me, I have listened to a lot of cables myself, and most were sonically insignificant in spite of price. I did discover a few that were noticeably worse subjectively than others, but only a few. So, listening for the tiny, at best, cable differences is no fun. It quickly becomes pointless and boring beyond belief.
So, who is interested anymore in doing extensive testing when the audible returns are so miniscule? Not many. And, scientific testing is difficult, because it is nearly impossible to find two cables that are exactly the same except for a single parameter like L,R or C, metallurgy, winding geometry, single/multi strand, dialectric material, breakin time, etc. Blind listening tests are similarly useless due to reconnection time, unless a special switch box is used.
The anti-LRC diatribe by JA I described contained no measurements, nor did he even allude to any measurements he or anyone else had made. Like you, he relied on unsubstantiated conjecture about mysterious things beyond any known science, providing no actual evidence there was even a hint of anything worthy of deeper investigation. So, his counter to known and accepted electrical theory was pure hand waving and FUD using straw men. Disappointing. But, the sheer emptiness of his vehement counterargument convinced me that there must indeed be something to the LRC model worth looking at.
I am no expert on wire manufacture, but it is a very mature, very basic, heavy industrial process around the globe. You don't believe, I hope, that boutique audio specialty cable guys invest in the heavy equipment to cast and draw their own wire for the tiny audiophile market? If you can locate a photo of, say, a biggie like Audio Quest's own wire drawing plant, I will be shocked. It doesn't exist, I'll wager. Although, allegedly Cardas invested in the purchase of their own industrial wire facility, a rarity that also does work to spec for others. But, no, for the most part, the boutiques outsource that job to specification to established bulk wire makers, which are numerous. Proper soldering or bonding of decent connectors takes a little skill, but it ain't rocket science. I can do that at home quite competently, and I have done so often. Doing it on a larger, more cost efficient scale is rather low tech. But, again, where is the compelling factual evidence that fine details of cable construction make any sonic difference at all except in your head?
I do not either over- or under-estimate the role of mains cabling. I had my house custom wired with separate audio power circuits to ensure proper grounding to code and more than suffient current capacity for a 7.1 audio/video system. Yes, multiple standard 20A circuits of identical wire length were used, all on the same electrical phase. It works great. Exotic power cords make no difference that anyone I know can actually hear, again except in their heads on sighted listening. A PSAudio regenerating PowerPlant makes no audible difference, either, but it makes for a handy, remote controlled mains turn on/off switcher, albeit a very expensive one. Special wall outlets, carbon fiber outlet cover plates? Are you kidding? But, I am always willing to be shown the error of my ways about sonics via competent measurements.
The cable guys make the claims and invent the myths, blindly accepted then embellished into la-la land by audiophiles. It is up to all of them to back that up with hard evidence. That they do not and will not speaks volumes.
- Thread Starter
- #67
I was talking speaker cables, not interconnects.
Do you really believe that ANY cable can tilt an upper frequency range so that higher frequencies get accentuated?
P.S. Although Wiki as a source should in general be taken with precaution personally I find the article about speakers cables to be very well written with a nice conslucions made in "Quality debate" paragraph.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaker_wire
@amirm As you did cable measurements some time ago this article may be of interest you: http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/06/measurements-speaker-cables-wires.html
Last edited:
IMO as long as the LCR characteristics are suitable for whether it is an interconnect or a speaker cable the only other important thing is a good secure contact between plug and socket - particularly for speakers where the peak currents can be high.
LCR characteristics obviously worked well for copper, potatoe and banana, but not that much for mud - that one is still out of reach of the laws of the electrophysics.
Wow, I was looking through this thread for my input and did not find any. I know I have been busy but....
So, the only thing a cable (talking speaker cable here) can do is degrade the signal through it, so yes, all cables affect the signal. Now, its that combination of amp, cable and speaker that need to be taken into account.
A cable can only be compared to another cable in the same system, as the amp and the load simply play with one another through the cable. OF course, a voltage source (such as ss amp with global feedback) or a tube amp with a high output impedance will play differently, and although some of this is the effect of the cable, mostly its the amps differences so the cable is not as relevant, but is still relevant. The R in LCR surely affects the damping factor of the entire system and therefore the sound. At high frequencies the L of the cable can act as a frequency dependent resistor and affect the sound. The C in LCR is usually pretty small but as it increases then some amps can become unstable and oscillate some and these oscillations combine and affect sound.
Audio Critic did some nice tests showing how FR was affected by different types and lengths of cables using the same amp and load.
There is a ton of good information just needs to be googled I guess.
To sum up, as we represent a cable as LCR, then we acknowledge that it is a filter, and therefore depending on its values of L, C and R we change its filtering characteristics.
Yes, cables do affect the sound, however, getting audibility with music you need about maybe 1db of change, and that's doable, but not usual, between low LCR designed cables, and again, its the cable interaction with the amp and the speaker that brings out the "cables" sound, so to speak. Cables change the way the amp sees the speaker. Best cable is short cable with least amount of L,C and R. Bottom line, as the cable interacts with amp and speaker, if you did hear some benefit with it in my system, does not mean you would hear it in your system
So, the only thing a cable (talking speaker cable here) can do is degrade the signal through it, so yes, all cables affect the signal. Now, its that combination of amp, cable and speaker that need to be taken into account.
A cable can only be compared to another cable in the same system, as the amp and the load simply play with one another through the cable. OF course, a voltage source (such as ss amp with global feedback) or a tube amp with a high output impedance will play differently, and although some of this is the effect of the cable, mostly its the amps differences so the cable is not as relevant, but is still relevant. The R in LCR surely affects the damping factor of the entire system and therefore the sound. At high frequencies the L of the cable can act as a frequency dependent resistor and affect the sound. The C in LCR is usually pretty small but as it increases then some amps can become unstable and oscillate some and these oscillations combine and affect sound.
Audio Critic did some nice tests showing how FR was affected by different types and lengths of cables using the same amp and load.
There is a ton of good information just needs to be googled I guess.
To sum up, as we represent a cable as LCR, then we acknowledge that it is a filter, and therefore depending on its values of L, C and R we change its filtering characteristics.
Yes, cables do affect the sound, however, getting audibility with music you need about maybe 1db of change, and that's doable, but not usual, between low LCR designed cables, and again, its the cable interaction with the amp and the speaker that brings out the "cables" sound, so to speak. Cables change the way the amp sees the speaker. Best cable is short cable with least amount of L,C and R. Bottom line, as the cable interacts with amp and speaker, if you did hear some benefit with it in my system, does not mean you would hear it in your system
Unless you have an amplifier that is inherently unstable there is no problem with low/lowish RLC speaker cables and electro-dynamic speakers.. Electrostatic speakers require consideration re amp. suitability but low capacitance speaker cable is not a significant issue. Low/lowish RLC wire is cheap and nothing more fancy is required.
The RLC values of a passive crossover and the speaker impedance render an adequate AWG normal speaker cable's parameters inconsequential.
Ditto the low output impedance of the amps directly connected to speakers.
This topic has been done to death over the decades and the "I can hear it" crowd have not disproven the fundamental physics of cable performance at audio frequencies. I am still open to credible electrical science back-up of speaker cable audibility claims. Not holding my breath.
It seems to be a fundamental premise amongst many audiophiles that every item in a sound system has a 'sound signature' that is audible in some way or another. This certainly is a delusion re speaker cables.
The RLC values of a passive crossover and the speaker impedance render an adequate AWG normal speaker cable's parameters inconsequential.
Ditto the low output impedance of the amps directly connected to speakers.
This topic has been done to death over the decades and the "I can hear it" crowd have not disproven the fundamental physics of cable performance at audio frequencies. I am still open to credible electrical science back-up of speaker cable audibility claims. Not holding my breath.
It seems to be a fundamental premise amongst many audiophiles that every item in a sound system has a 'sound signature' that is audible in some way or another. This certainly is a delusion re speaker cables.
This topic has been done to death over the decades and the "I can hear it" crowd have not disproven the fundamental physics of cable performance at audio frequencies. I am still open to credible electrical science back-up of speaker cable audibility claims. Not holding my breath.
It seems to be a fundamental premise amongst many audiophiles that every item in a sound system has a 'sound signature' that is audible in some way or another. This certainly is a delusion re speaker cables.
While this is very true in general I must say I was pleasantly surprised with the facts about mud, potatoe and banana test. And while potatoe and banana managed to hold their ground with copper I still think there is a chance for mud given some improvements in noise isolation!
- Thread Starter
- #74
Thats why i would rather see some graphs and tests in comparison to "i hear" since i heard and i would like a data points for better understanding of the subject. "I hear - hence its better" crowd brought us 1000$ per meter cables, cone holders, cryo-treated, teflon/air insulated, graphite hybrid etc products.
Here's a simple one, with in-room measurements
https://www.lifewire.com/speaker-cables-make-a-difference-3134902
I would look elsewhere than cables for audible improvements in sound quality.
- Thread Starter
- #76
I'm soooo not looking for improvement in audio quality through cables, those days are long gone. Im just picking on a subject that CAN be brought to light using simple numbers and use-case scenarios. What is what, why is it what, and where to apply why and what. Amp->Cable->Speakers are separate but should also be viewed as a whole in that perspective. Yes, speaker crossover is important, amp is important, cables connecting have their influence. We have 3 elements that we can breakdown and find an answer to the question of lowest possible degradation of signal possible from point A to point C. I don't think its magic hence it is within our grasp of deeper understanding.
P.S. Thanks for the link.
The deeper understanding requires a certain level of understanding to be understood. The good thing is that summaries and conclusions are usually written in plain language. It is all out there for those who wish to go beyond internet gossip and hearsay in justifying their individual viewpoints to others.
Last edited:
- Thread Starter
- #78
Exactly, sadly there is few actual explanations that are chewed down for easier comprehension of the interested parties (quote your signature here). Measurements and explanations on how interaction between elements and the equation / measured values influence the result are almost non existent. For instance, in the article we were provided with measurement graphs for cables showcasing their difference and admittance that there could and should be audible difference between them, in order to get the general idea of how would it manifest on a certain set of speakers and amp one should know EE and Acoustics as a back of their palm, i respect individuals that spent their years in acquiring such knowledge but not everyone is willing to commit to such extent in order to understand the logic behind amplifier reaction to certain elements in cable and speakers. If it is just math there should be a evidence supported instruction what is best paired with what due to exact nature of devices. When you get a company like CA with article like this https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/hkg/en/blog/speaker-cables quick quote: " There are different sound preferences for different listeners, so try some out, listen for yourself " we are bound to snake oil hearsay. There is truth out there but obviously its hiding very well.The deeper understanding requires a certain level of understanding to be understood. The good thing is that summaries and conclusions are usually written in plain language. It is all out there for those who wish to go beyond internet gossip and hearsay in justifying their individual viewpoints to others.
General comment>
Why not accept what knowledgeable/experienced people say - get corroboration, of course? Is a doctor to teach in great detail all about why he makes a diagnosis or with software products exactly how and why it was so written?
Enjoy the music and stop overthinking the, usually unimportant, minutiae so beloved in most audio forums. You do have the option of putting in the hard yards and starting from scratch to learn enough to understand.
There are good analyses of cable performance on the WWW. It takes some skill in searching to 'separate the wheat from the chaff', There are good search-skills tutorials on the internet. I am amazed at how many questions are posted here that a quick Google search would have answered in more detail.
I have pretty much given up on getting too deeply involved in suppositions of audiophiles after putting in time to condense information into a more easily digested form, only to repeatedly get the comeback that I am an EE so what would I know about audio. Can't get past against entrenched misbeliefs.
Years of learning and practise cannot be transferred well in brief forum encounters. That is reality. It seems everybody nowadays wants to be seen as an expert in something by grabbing snippets of information and this leads to discounting real experts who can show the egoists are shallow frauds.
Last edited:
- Thread Starter
- #80
I already accepted what knowledgeable people told me, i tried it and im satisfied with the results.Years of learning and practise cannot be transferred well in brief forum encounters.
But this is not a matter of satisfaction. Difference between this and majority of other forums is that here we get some measurements and their explanations in regards to their operation and influence. What i want is measured cables, their influence on types of amplification and in the end summary of amp-cable-speaker symbiosis based on least amount of signal degradation. I'm not looking for the holy grail of cables, anyone that committed to audio at least a bit knows its impossible. But its impossible not cause it cannot be done but rather for the lack of actual down to earth measurements of elements and their combined influence on signal. If i had such knowledge i would share it wholeheartedly. If i ever get it ill be sure to.
P.S. Knowledge is shareable, experience not so much...
