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Let's stop calling Class D amplifiers "efficient" when they are not.

Well it is about time for me to adopt ANC. Got a plane flight coming up soon too.

USD$100 for a working product from big corpo? Why can't landlords do the same with rent. And I thought mom and pop are supposed to be our friends.

I shamefully admit, my idea of prices have been stuck with Apple and Bose since I forgot other brands have started achieving good sound at lower prices.
 
Class A operation has superior sonics to the other
So in your 8 years as a member here, you haven't read or learned anything? Maybe start with this thread.

 
Ok , sensing Irony .....

My position and comment on this stands , you should investigate it for yourself ..


Regards
 
Last edited:
Ok , sensing Irony .....

My position and comment on this stands , you should investigate it for yourself ..


Regards

Is it your position that you could take a double-blind test under proper controls and pick out the Class A amp to a statistically significant percentage?

Jim
 
Is it your position that you could take a double-blind test under proper controls and pick out the Class A amp to a statistically significant percentage?

Jim

If there's any magic that eludes measurement then Bob Carver wouldn't have beaten Stereophile by plain old nulling and distortion knobs.
 
Class A operation has superior sonics to the others, for headphones they make the best choice , class D is not for sonics but for high power @ reduced cost, size , etc ..

My DAP (Hiby R6 gen 3) has an option for class A or AB. The only difference I can detect between the two is that class A gets the DAP too hot to carry in a pocket and runs the battery down very fast. No audible benefit at all.

The class A option is useless.
 
If there's any magic that eludes measurement then Bob Carver wouldn't have beaten Stereophile by plain old nulling and distortion knobs.
He may not have even done that.
 
Careful. You can pick out some tube amps.

True. I need to remember to state qualifiers, otherwise we'll be testing surfboards against battleships. :facepalm:

Jim
 
My DAP (Hiby R6 gen 3) has an option for class A or AB. The only difference I can detect between the two is that class A gets the DAP too hot to carry in a pocket and runs the battery down very fast. No audible benefit at all.

The class A option is useless.
I handled a large Yamaha amp with the class A switch and like you experienced with your amp the difference was not there. Sounded exactly the same. I handled many class A JVC and Technics amps and they ran class A for the first little bit of power and they sounded the same as any other amp when on a switchbox and comparing them. Class A is a very broad brush stroke that encompasses many amps from many manufacturers and so the comment made by @A.wayne is too broad a stroke and makes little to no sense.
 
True. I need to remember to state qualifiers, otherwise we'll be testing surfboards against battleships. :facepalm:

Each of those is well suited to the job it is designed for and would be very bad at the other job so both are needed.

I don't see any use for class A amps when there are superior options at lower prices.
 
Maybe, i just tell again. I dont care about the efficience of 5w tube amps.
I'm going with 'yes' then. But no matter- you and I are on the same page.
Err, academic response not to the question.

Class A operation has superior sonics to the others, for headphones they make the best choice , class D is not for sonics but for high power @ reduced cost, size , etc ..

Same for class H , AB , B , these are all compromises to sonics based-on application where high biased class A is prohibitive ..

Class A is not best for high powered application , well not all ..


Regards
Cite needed.
Sy, you can take this post as a Citation :)
Class A used to be used to place the output devices in the most linear part of their range of operation. This is traditionally done because in the old days it was hard to put enough feedback on the circuit to prevent non-linearities raising their ugly heads. So every means possible to reduce the innate distortion of the circuit was used to allow feedback to better do its job; class A operation is one tool used for that.

These days class D allows the designer to use a considerably higher amount of feedback than is often practical in a class A or AB design as in those designs doing so without very careful design of the feedback network likely will result in stability problems.

In all amps you have something called 'Phase Margin' which describes the limits of bandwidth and feedback, which if exceeded, results in oscillation (due to phase shift at higher frequencies, usually ultrasonic). You are familiar with this problem as it has appeared a number of times in class A or AB amps over the years. Usually its something to do with the load such that frequencies which exceed the phase margin of the circuit pass through the feedback network (a well-designed feedback network can prevent this so is more than just a simple resistor). That is why I said 'without very careful design' earlier.

Examples are the Futterman OTL (in particular the New York Audio Labs versions) which could oscillate if the load was not ideal and especially if the amp was overloaded. Other examples showed up in the 1980s when a number of solid state amps would oscillate when used with a particular Polk Audio speaker cable. There are a good number of other examples. In the tube era, one of the lowest distortion amps made was the Khronhite UF101, which ran up to 80dB of feedback at some frequencies. But if you look at that design, two things are obvious- the first being that the designer was very good at feedback network design and the second that he recognized both the limits of tubes to have enough Gain Bandwidth Product and also that phase margin must not be exceeded. So the feedback varies in that design depending on the frequency.

Class D can solve the linearity problem and the oscillation problem with one stone, using a technique called 'self oscillation'. In this case, so much feedback is applied to the amp that it goes into oscillation as soon as the amp is powered up. The feedback network is carefully designed so that the amp can only find one frequency at which to oscillate, and that frequency is used as its switching frequency. This allows for a considerably higher amount of feedback than was previously possible in many cases, although there are some class AB amps available now that do have more sophisticated feedback network designs which allow for more feedback with them too.

The point of this is when you get that much feedback in an amp design (in excess of 30dB at all audio frequencies, not just in the bass or the like), the feedback allows the amp to reject a great deal more of that which is not the signal, such as distortion- so can correct for phase shift due to limited bandwidth or the effects of AC power line sag. This also means that class A no longer has a particular distortion advantage it might have had in the past. I should point out in case you are not aware that any class D amp which uses a choke in the output filter (which is all class D amps used in audio) is incapable of any kind of crossover or notch distortion associated with the zero crossing of the audio signal. For more information on this topic see Bruno Putzeys' paper on negative feedback.There you will see how many class A and AB designs had limited feedback owing to limited Gain Bandwidth Product, and he presents it all with the math, diagrams and engaging text if the math isn't your thing.
 
Nope, not all. There are some specially designed modulation schemes that make it possibly to (almost) omit the output filters. They are not particularly high-powered devices, but they do exist:

I was thinking of the kind that use computer controlled output to negate the filter. There are also uses such as in subwoofers such as in this paper from the AES. But I was being too general...
 
When I think of a Citation, I think of...

1724700710314.png


umm, I mean...

1724700593644.png


:cool:

It's OK -- I'll see myself out. Thanks.
;)
 
Yup! Brute force. That was an amp for laboratory work so efficiency wasn't a concern.
 
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