Lamenting the lack of good quality budget A/V Preamplifier/Processors

[JimA84]

You should also consider whether you really need balanced connections.

Although they can be theoretically better... their primary gain is for lengthy runs through interference infested environments...

In the home, with typicaly runs of .5m to 3m - there is very little need for running balanced.

Which opens up the mass market world of AVR's with RCA Pre-Out's - rather than being liminted to Pre-pro's with XLR's

Optimal results still require proper gain & voltage matching... but in most situations, you will get identical results with unbalanced RCA and XLR connections.

When comparing quite a few manufacturers prepro's and their TOTL AVR's - often 99% of the circuits are the same, and they tack on an XLR output board on the end, while removing the amps from the PrePro version (which occasionally has some advantages for the Prepro, but not always).

I moved from a prepro to an AVR around 2008... I run my AVR with external amps to run L/C/R, and use the internal AVR amps for surrounds/heights.

I believe that at the moment, this is still the configuration that provides the best "bang for the buck" value - a hybrid setup, which leverages the AVR amps for the relatively easy work of surround/height ambience and effects, while handing off the heavy lifting of the L/C/R to external "powerhouse" amps.
Everything is connected via single ended RCA...

In the price no object world (wherein I do not live) - a prepro with a stack of amps, and everything connected via balanced XLR's might well be a reasonable option (space might also be an issue... but if price is no object, one assumes that space won't be an issue either!)

Today, as things stand, the best quality, budget, prepro's, are all AVR's.

I originally tried RCA connections with quality shielded cables in my urban apartment and my system became a hum infested AM radio receiver. If I wanted to listen to Art Bell on late night radio it would have been wonderful.

You REALLY NEED XLR in an urban environment.

And I mean real differential XLR, not an adapter cable. So if your equipment doesn't have XLR you need a quality active converter located within a foot of the source and then use high quality cables and active converter boxes.

Of course if I could afford $7,500 a pair speakers I would be happy to hook them to a receiver with good amps.

But like nobody making DVRs with pre-outs and no XLR and no ribbon speakers and so forth the whole market is sad unless you can pay tens of thousands of dollars for ultra high end gear.

Otherwise you might as well shop at Walmart.

My point is they are driving you in that direction and no former high fidelity people who resisted that in the 1960s are stepping up.

 

[JimA84]

Great suggestion about the complexities of DI boxes; but...
Wouldn't this be like buying a whole large pizza and throwing just half (-6dB) of it away because you think pizza is not the ideal daily dietary supplement?

Actually I just want people to go back to producing high quality affordable audio equipment with no distinction between "consumer" and "professional" and to incorporate superior technology like such a simple thing like XLR into everything as the lowest standard.

Unfortunately we are mired in a digital world revolving around increasingly aggressive DRM.

Half of what I read on many forums is how I can manage to consume digital media content as a licensed fee paying customer if I just want to have decent sound. Yet constantly blocked by DRM and other issues.

I long for the time when you could simply buy a record, meaning that you had compensated the artists and the industry,
and then play it on whatever high fidelity equipment you could afford.

This whole environment is becoming a battleground between consumers who just want to experience decent quality entertainment perhaps beyond the mediocre level and corporations who want to charge you for flushing the toilet during the intermission.

Along with companies trying to hammer consumers over the head with silly DRM technology that even an idiot in China can defeat while getting dressed for breakfast.

If you can watch it or hear it, you can copy it.

If someone wants to steal, copy or illegally redistribute your content that ship sailed decades ago.

Punishing your legitimate paying customers is beyond insane

 

[pseudoid]

If you can watch it or hear it, you can copy it.
If someone wants to steal, copy or illegally redistribute your content that ship sailed decades ago.
Punishing your legitimate paying customers is beyond insane

Indeed!
I first think of that line "Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore!”
My second thought is always "Those d*mn Hooligan B*st*rds and their Shenanigans!"
We are talking about mu$ic? Right?

 

[JimA84]

Indeed!
I first think of that line "Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore!”
My second thought is always "Those d*mn Hooligan B*st*rds and their Shenanigans!"
We are talking about mu$ic? Right?

A good example is region codes.

Most of my best friends are K-pop musicians whose music is typically not even distributed in the United States.

So I am perfectly willing to pay a premium for a top end Sony Blu-Ray player that has been professionally hacked to remove the region code feature.

I legally bought or was given these recordings yet the industry wants to prohibit me from playing them simply because I live in the United States, where freedom of expression is supposedly a basic part of the Constitution.

 

[JimA84]

It's not a matter of gain but noise rejection. Instead of one center conductor hoping to be shielded by the cable jacket you have two center conductors of opposite polarity so noise that gets through the jacket cancels itself because unlike the differential signal, noise has the same polarity in both center conductors and at the input they are amplified in opposite polarity, canceling each other while the differential signal is properly amplified as a whole.

This is the primary reason that XLR exists.

It's also the reason that you should use a proper active converter box to convert RCA to XLR. While adapter cables might seem to "work," XLR is all about differential signal, not impedance or which pin is what.

And, besides, what if the reason I ordered the extra large pizza was because I wanted the box? In this case I'd like to get the noise rejection without having to buy a five thousand dollar DVR or Pre-Pro just to get XLR pre-outs when I'm not going to use any of the amplifiers.

If I could buy the box without ordering the pizza, in other words.

 

[voodooless]

As I said, the AVRs I can afford don't feature pre-outs. The ones that do typically cost many thousands of dollars.

No they don’t. Just get a second hand Denon, even a brand new X3800H is below €1000 nowadays. DI boxes are also not for free, and generally the quality is crap for the lower priced ones.

And I still need XLR due to noise reduction. Like many urban dwellers I live in a RFI furnace. RCA cables are just antennas.

You can have pseudo-balanced cables that work almost as well.

A RCA to XLR cable is like trying to plug a 115 volt household appliance into a 220 volt outlet by simply changing the plug.

That’s just nonsense. It works absolutely fine for domestic environments for these cases. The only real issue may be ground loops. As long as you don’t have them, it should be plenty okay.

… and I know, I ran a setup exactly like that, as do many others.

 

[dlaloum]

As I said, the AVRs I can afford don't feature pre-outs. The ones that do typically cost many thousands of dollars.

My main criteria were :

1) Good Prepro with full prepro outputs (XLR not needed, but nice to have if available) - 5.1.4 is the requirement
2) Good RoomEQ system - preference and interested in Dirac in particular
3) Runs cool (to ensure longevity, after multiple experiences with hot running AVR/AVP's with lifetimes averaging no more than 5 years)

At the time when my previous AVR started playing up (about 2 years ago) - the options based on budget include the newly released Onkyo "Dirac" family, the Denon X3700 (Audyssey), and the Anthems (pushing the budget).

I have 4 ohm nominal speakers with very low impedance dips, so I had no expectation that any of these would run my speakers properly via internal amps, but I already have good poweramps that suit my speakers well - and those have both XLR and RCA inputs... so I needed the AVR to provide surround and height but not front L/C/R - and all the amps in the shortlist could meet that requirement.

In the end, the Integra DRX3.4 was available at around US$850, the Onkyo RZ50 was around US$1200, the Denon X3700 was around US$1300 and the anthems were a little more...

So I purchased the Integra 3.4 (some 18 months later, the RZ50 is now cheaper than the 3.4, but I can no longer match the price I paid for the 3.4 - the integra's have been pushed into a higher price bracket) - results have been excellent.
Dirac was definitely preferred to Audyssey due to disappointing experiences with Audyssey in the previous couple of generations of AVR's.

Depending on your geographic location, the Integra DRX 3.4 may be the best value Hybrid prepro (full pre-outs, + ability to run surround/height onboard)... But it depends how PAC's marketing division have set up the pricing... really the 3.4 should be priced at marginally more than the NR7100, but in many places it has ended up more expensive than the RZ50. (had that been the case where i am, I would have purchased the RZ50)

 

[pseudoid]

Also you can't convert RCA to XLR with cables. You need an active converter like the Rolls MB15b ProMatch. It's not simply a matter of swapping wires.
There is really no acceptable passive solution to going from RCA to XLR.

Thanx @JimA84,

Wouldn't this be like buying a whole large pizza and throwing just half (-6dB) of it away because you think pizza is not the ideal daily dietary supplement?

Your are more patient and you explained the problem more succinctly than my weak 'pizza' example.

 

[peng]

Thanx @JimA84,

Your are more patient and you explained the problem more succinctly than my weak 'pizza' example.

He has good reason to use XLR. You may or may not have the same reasons depending on your own application, in many (probably most home theater use with interconnects shorter than 2 to even 4 meters), RCAs are just as good, and RCA to XLR are almost as good, per Hypex's articles I linked before.

Edit: missed your point about a full pizza vs half (dietary) one.. That's an excellent analogy!!

Depending on the person's conditions, one may or may not be better than the other. For audio, it would depend on the a few things, one being SINAD vs output voltage characteristics. In many cases, the 2X voltage you get balanced outputs may actually give your lower performance. You have to do an overall assessment for your applications. It is better to have both options obviously, but not having the balanced option is more often than not, not an issue at all. In my case, either way is good, no difference in performance. Many power amps, such as Marantz class AB types, ATI's older generations, don't even take advantage of the 2X voltage, by lowering the gain by 6 dB if you use those inputs. Again, it depends..

 

[JimA84]

I have looked into this in more depth since my previous posts.

For one thing, it looks like the Onkyo TX-RZ50 is now widely available new for $1178 in the United States.
This has a full complement of pre-outs, albeit RCA. It's still advisable to use a quality active converter for RCA to XLR, but this at least simplifies things,a bit.

If you want a lower cost receiver like the TX-NR6100 you can use a decent DI box to isolate and pad the speaker outputs to XLR. Due to the high voltage of the speaker outs a good passive DI box should be adequate. From what I saw, the Rockville RDI5 looks adequate for about $32.95 each. 1 channel so you need one per channel, with the pad set to 40 dB attenuation.

You likely want to use the ground lift to avoid shorting the (-) speaker terminal to ground unless you're sure it's grounded internally in the receiver.

You can use active converters, but it's probably overkill. And the issue of ground lift still applies.

A simple passive resistor voltage divider is likely inadequate because you need the transformer or active circuit to DC isolate the amplifier outputs from whatever you connect them to.

This should keep the receiver operating in a very clean amplifier mode so it should add little or no noise or distortion.

This should permit use of active studio monitors instead of passive speakers if desired, even with a moderately priced receiver like the Onkyo TX-NR6100.

Or the use of more powerful power amplifiers to drive less efficient speakers or for larger listening spaces.

 

[Bartlomiej]

Hi, I am also in search for an AV preamp, although my needs are slightly different.
I need it to be small. I may also accept an integrated solution if the integrated amp is "good enough".

My "good enough" starting point is old Rotel RSX-1056 serving as a dac/surround decoder with hooked up DIY TPA3255 amp running at 36V SMPS.

Now, my short list consist of:
Harman Citation AMP (it is pricy and the rears must be their small expensive surround speakers - can't find any measurments but it does use Purifi d-class amp so should be decent)
Canton Smart Connect 5.1 (guess most versalite solution - discussed over here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/canton-smart-connect-5-1-discussion.25589/)
Denon HEOS AVR 5.1 (discountinued, but there is one on a sale in my city, I only found these measuremnts: https://audio.com.pl/testy/kino-domowe/amplitunery-av/2821-heos-avr )

I lean towards Denon (for the simplicity and design), but I am not sure how to interpret the measurments, and I do not know what class d amp they used in it.
If it is not recommended based on the available review, I'd get the Canton. I do not want to use small Marantz series as they have large footprint (37cm deep). So my options are very limited.

Speakers used are my old Focal Cobalt 806S relatively easy to drive (Efficiency 90 dB) and they do sound really nice with current Chinese TPA3255 (3e-audio). They tend to be "unlistenable" with mediocre electronics. I use some small rears and small REL QUAKE subwoofer.

Can you please push me to on or another side? Does HEOS looks good enough?

 

[ban25]

Hi, I am also in search for an AV preamp, although my needs are slightly different.
I need it to be small. I may also accept an integrated solution if the integrated amp is "good enough".

My "good enough" starting point is old Rotel RSX-1056 serving as a dac/surround decoder with hooked up DIY TPA3255 amp running at 36V SMPS.

Now, my short list consist of:
Harman Citation AMP (it is pricy and the rears must be their small expensive surround speakers - can't find any measurments but it does use Purifi d-class amp so should be decent)
Canton Smart Connect 5.1 (guess most versalite solution - discussed over here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/canton-smart-connect-5-1-discussion.25589/)
Denon HEOS AVR 5.1 (discountinued, but there is one on a sale in my city, I only found these measuremnts: https://audio.com.pl/testy/kino-domowe/amplitunery-av/2821-heos-avr )

I lean towards Denon (for the simplicity and design), but I am not sure how to interpret the measurments, and I do not know what class d amp they used in it.
If it is not recommended based on the available review, I'd get the Canton. I do not want to use small Marantz series as they have large footprint (37cm deep). So my options are very limited.

Speakers used are my old Focal Cobalt 806S relatively easy to drive (Efficiency 90 dB) and they do sound really nice with current Chinese TPA3255 (3e-audio). They tend to be "unlistenable" with mediocre electronics. I use some small rears and small REL QUAKE subwoofer.

Can you please push me to on or another side? Does HEOS looks good enough?

One option for a compact 2-channel solution would be a Bluesound Powernode or Powernode Edge, particularly given the high efficiency of your speakers.

 

[Roland68]

Hi, I am also in search for an AV preamp, although my needs are slightly different.
I need it to be small. I may also accept an integrated solution if the integrated amp is "good enough".

My "good enough" starting point is old Rotel RSX-1056 serving as a dac/surround decoder with hooked up DIY TPA3255 amp running at 36V SMPS.

Now, my short list consist of:
Harman Citation AMP (it is pricy and the rears must be their small expensive surround speakers - can't find any measurments but it does use Purifi d-class amp so should be decent)
Canton Smart Connect 5.1 (guess most versalite solution - discussed over here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/canton-smart-connect-5-1-discussion.25589/)
Denon HEOS AVR 5.1 (discountinued, but there is one on a sale in my city, I only found these measuremnts: https://audio.com.pl/testy/kino-domowe/amplitunery-av/2821-heos-avr )

I lean towards Denon (for the simplicity and design), but I am not sure how to interpret the measurments, and I do not know what class d amp they used in it.
If it is not recommended based on the available review, I'd get the Canton. I do not want to use small Marantz series as they have large footprint (37cm deep). So my options are very limited.

Speakers used are my old Focal Cobalt 806S relatively easy to drive (Efficiency 90 dB) and they do sound really nice with current Chinese TPA3255 (3e-audio). They tend to be "unlistenable" with mediocre electronics. I use some small rears and small REL QUAKE subwoofer.

Can you please push me to on or another side? Does HEOS looks good enough?

Also consider the Canton Smart Amp 5.1 and the Nubert nuXinema preAV.

 

[Bartlomiej]

I ordered the Denon. It has TPA3251D2 as AMP, PCM5100 for Stereo DAC and PCM1690 for 5.1. Looking at service manual, separate power lines for amp, digital processing and pre. Positive reviews about sound, negative about app.
I'll give it a try. 14 day return period.

 

[Theodore8]

You should also consider whether you really need balanced connections.

Although they can be theoretically better... their primary gain is for lengthy runs through interference infested environments...

In the home, with typicaly runs of .5m to 3m - there is very little need for running balanced.

Which opens up the mass market world of AVR's with RCA Pre-Out's - rather than being liminted to Pre-pro's with XLR's

Optimal results still require proper gain & voltage matching... but in most situations, you will get identical results with unbalanced RCA and XLR connections.

When comparing quite a few manufacturers prepro's and their TOTL AVR's - often 99% of the circuits are the same, and they tack on an XLR output board on the end, while removing the amps from the PrePro version (which occasionally has some advantages for the Prepro, but not always).

I moved from a prepro to an AVR around 2008... I run my AVR with external amps to run L/C/R, and use the internal AVR amps for surrounds/heights.

I believe that at the moment, this is still the configuration that provides the best "bang for the buck" value - a hybrid setup, which leverages the AVR amps for the relatively easy work of surround/height ambience and effects, while handing off the heavy lifting of the L/C/R to external "powerhouse" amps.
Everything is connected via single ended RCA...

In the price no object world (wherein I do not live) - a prepro with a stack of amps, and everything connected via balanced XLR's might well be a reasonable option (space might also be an issue... but if price is no object, one assumes that space won't be an issue either!)

Today, as things stand, the best quality, budget, prepro's, are all AVR's.

Very convincing, thank you. Would you mind sharing which AVR brand/model do you recommend/use for the setup you describe (hybrid, HDMI input, dolby Atmos, L/C/R out to external amps, and internal outputs to surround & height)?

 

[Theodore8]

I can attest to that.
When I got my Genelecs, I also felt i'd be missing out on something if I don't have fully XLR / balanced connections.
Now i'm running simple RCA -> XLR adapters after the Pre-Outs of my amp and use long XLR cables to connect the speakers.
If I should feel the urge to "upgrade" something for my peace of mind, I may start a small DIY project and build a box with these converters here

Module unbalanced to balanced symetrizer DRV134 stereo - Audiophonics

This audio module makes it possible to symmetrize all asymmetrical line level HIFI-RCA-CINCH signal in symmetrical (Balanced-XLR) signal autonomously and qualitatively ...

www.audiophonics.fr

Though I don't see the reason for that (anymore)

I have the same Genelecs and am looking for the same avr pre-amp set up (i.e., HDMI in, L/C/R pre-out to active speakers, and internal output to passive surround/heights). Would you mind sharing the brand/model that you settled on?

 

[dlaloum]

Very convincing, thank you. Would you mind sharing which AVR brand/model do you recommend/use for the setup you describe (hybrid, HDMI input, dolby Atmos, L/C/R out to external amps, and internal outputs to surround & height)?

I am using an Integra DRX3.4 - mostly identical to an Onkyo NR7100 or Pioneer LX305 - but with a full set of pre-outs, which its twin brethren do not have.
Alternative include good options from the same stable but in more upmarket models having more channels, or models from Denon/Marantz... Anthem have good to excellent devices too, as do JBL, ARCAM and others.

Most of the models that have a full set of pre-outs would do the job - not all are as good in terms if pre-out SINAD... as long as the SINAD is over 80db however, and the major contributor is noise floor rather than THD, then issues will invariably be well below the threshold of audibility.

Different AVR's may also have differing voltage output on the pre-outs, and therefore mate differently (potentially) with different power amps.

My Integra (and the rest of its family) - work well both into my 0.7V input Quad 606 (0.7V for rated output) and into my 1.4V Crown XLS2500... according to measurements of AVR's of this family they are capable of over 3V - so more than double what I need for rated output into my least sensitive (lowest gain) amp - the Crown.

 

[tc2007]

Not sure if anyone mentioned Emotiva processors or not.

13 channel processor - https://emotiva.com/collections/pro...-2-channel-dolby-atmos-dts-x-cinema-processor

Not the sharpest knife when it comes to the user interface but decent sound quality for the money. It's made by ToneWinner same brand as Outlaw and Iota VX.

 

[rynberg]

Not sure if anyone mentioned Emotiva processors or not.

13 channel processor - https://emotiva.com/collections/pro...-2-channel-dolby-atmos-dts-x-cinema-processor

Not the sharpest knife when it comes to the user interface but decent sound quality for the money. It's made by ToneWinner same brand as Outlaw and Iota VX.

How is anyone still suggesting an Emotiva processor in 2024? They have royally screwed customers over for several years in a row now on these products...

 

[tc2007]

I have a MR1 receiver and I find it quite a value proposition in terms of power and clarity. It's not for regular Denon/Sony customers who expect a smooth plug and play experience. The software is not as polished but in return I get 100W+ real power all channels driven and it shows when I am watching the movie. Overall build quality is nice and it doesn't heat like the other AVRs. No doubt the hardware quality is on a different level.

Things improve over time.