Lamenting the lack of good quality budget A/V Preamplifier/Processors

[Newman]

Are there measurements of its SINAD? That was part of my question.

 

[Roland68]

I really doubt that buying a receiver with RCA pre-outs and something to convert the single to XLR could compare on price/performance. You probably lose quality in the conversion, and you certain lose money. Lots of < $500 receivers have pre-outs if you don't care about XLR and HDMI. I don't know what to use to covert, but I'd bet is at least $500.

Then check the service manual before buying a 4K (or more) expensive AVR. With many, the SE signals are only converted to balanced directly before the XLR outputs.

 

[dlaloum]

You should also consider whether you really need balanced connections.

Although they can be theoretically better... their primary gain is for lengthy runs through interference infested environments...

In the home, with typicaly runs of .5m to 3m - there is very little need for running balanced.

Which opens up the mass market world of AVR's with RCA Pre-Out's - rather than being liminted to Pre-pro's with XLR's

Optimal results still require proper gain & voltage matching... but in most situations, you will get identical results with unbalanced RCA and XLR connections.

When comparing quite a few manufacturers prepro's and their TOTL AVR's - often 99% of the circuits are the same, and they tack on an XLR output board on the end, while removing the amps from the PrePro version (which occasionally has some advantages for the Prepro, but not always).

I moved from a prepro to an AVR around 2008... I run my AVR with external amps to run L/C/R, and use the internal AVR amps for surrounds/heights.

I believe that at the moment, this is still the configuration that provides the best "bang for the buck" value - a hybrid setup, which leverages the AVR amps for the relatively easy work of surround/height ambience and effects, while handing off the heavy lifting of the L/C/R to external "powerhouse" amps.
Everything is connected via single ended RCA...

In the price no object world (wherein I do not live) - a prepro with a stack of amps, and everything connected via balanced XLR's might well be a reasonable option (space might also be an issue... but if price is no object, one assumes that space won't be an issue either!)

Today, as things stand, the best quality, budget, prepro's, are all AVR's.

 

[Roland68]

Are there measurements of its SINAD? That was part of my question.

SINAD is only meaningful for the entire device.
With the DRV134, you don't have to worry about that. Look at the data sheet and compare the performance with eg NE5532, which is commonly used for this application in expensive AVRs.

 

[Newman]

Like you say, I would rather see SINAD for the entire devices (AVR pre-out and balanced converter/gain module) than comparing the chips used as per your suggestion.

 

[dlaloum]

Then check the service manual before buying a 4K (or more) expensive AVR. With many, the SE signals are only converted to balanced directly before the XLR outputs.

I have yet to see service manuals for the current generation of Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer or Denon/Marantz.

Often these do not become readily accessible until the components have been in the market a number of years.

If you know where to get service manuals for any of these, pray tell!!!

 

[Roland68]

Like you say, I would rather see SINAD for the entire devices (AVR pre-out and balanced converter/gain module) than comparing the chips used as per your suggestion.

If they had spent 5 seconds they would have found this link:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ina）drv134-rca-to-xlr-adaptor-converter.9948/

In this box, someone connected a DIY power supply to a DIY DRV134 module.
I built a smaller circuit board with 2 x DRV134 (stereo) in a small aluminum box (approx. 80 x 50 x 20 mm), on one side with approx. 5cm RCA cable and on the other side with the longer XLR cable, like this no additional plug connections are necessary. All boxes are powered by a Mean Well +/- 12V power supply with the SMPS filter from the DIY forum. Cost of all parts for 6 channels (without cable) approx. 100 - 120 €/$.

 

[Roland68]

I have yet to see service manuals for the current generation of Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer or Denon/Marantz.

Often these do not become readily accessible until the components have been in the market a number of years.

If you know where to get service manuals for any of these, pray tell!!!

I have access to the schematics through friends of mine, but you can buy most current service manuals online for around $10-$30.

With most devices, the volume control takes place on the analog side (after the digital area) and only then the signal is balanced (directly before the output).
But it's been 2 years since I bought an AVR and I can't tell if newer units are consistently balanced or if the volume control is on the digital side.
But it is perfectly normal that the balanced signals are unbalanced after the input and are rebalanced after the volume control, before the amplifier stage. This is the case even with many devices costing several thousand dollars.
There are only a few devices that are completely and consistently balanced, which is both complex and more expensive, and that for every channel.

 

[peng]

I have access to the schematics through friends of mine, but you can buy most current service manuals online for around $10-$30.

With most devices, the volume control takes place on the analog side (after the digital area) and only then the signal is balanced (directly before the output).
But it's been 2 years since I bought an AVR and I can't tell if newer units are consistently balanced or if the volume control is on the digital side.
But it is perfectly normal that the balanced signals are unbalanced after the input and are rebalanced after the volume control, before the amplifier stage. This is the case even with many devices costing several thousand dollars.
There are only a few devices that are completely and consistently balanced, which is both complex and more expensive, and that for every channel.

If you can buy service manuals for the 2019 through 2022 or just 2021 please share a link. I searched hard and the latest ones I could find for the D+M's are no newer than, for example, AVR-X3600H and SR6014 (bought it, those were 2019 models iirc). Couldn't find any for Anthem's.

There are always some that are downloadable for free but again, anything newer than 2018/19 would be tough to find so I tend to agree with dlaloum on this in general.

 

[Roland68]

If you can buy service manuals for the 2019 through 2022 or just 2021 please share a link. I searched hard and the latest ones I could find for the D+M's are no newer than, for example, AVR-X3600H and SR6014 (bought it, those were 2019 models iirc). Couldn't find any for Anthem's.

There are always some that are downloadable for free but again, anything newer than 2018/19 would be tough to find so I tend to agree with dlaloum on this in general.

Unfortunately, I can't give you any other advice than using Google or searching within the relevant portals.
Just as an example for Marantz AV8805A Service Manual:
https://www.service-manual.net/?download=68267-marantz-av8805-service-manual

With smaller companies and top models, it may be that the service manuals are only given to certified workshops or the devices are only repaired internally.

 

[bcrawfo2]

You should also consider whether you really need balanced connections.

Although they can be theoretically better... their primary gain is for lengthy runs through interference infested environments...

In the home, with typicaly runs of .5m to 3m - there is very little need for running balanced.

Which opens up the mass market world of AVR's with RCA Pre-Out's - rather than being liminted to Pre-pro's with XLR's

Optimal results still require proper gain & voltage matching... but in most situations, you will get identical results with unbalanced RCA and XLR connections.

When comparing quite a few manufacturers prepro's and their TOTL AVR's - often 99% of the circuits are the same, and they tack on an XLR output board on the end, while removing the amps from the PrePro version (which occasionally has some advantages for the Prepro, but not always).

I moved from a prepro to an AVR around 2008... I run my AVR with external amps to run L/C/R, and use the internal AVR amps for surrounds/heights.

I believe that at the moment, this is still the configuration that provides the best "bang for the buck" value - a hybrid setup, which leverages the AVR amps for the relatively easy work of surround/height ambience and effects, while handing off the heavy lifting of the L/C/R to external "powerhouse" amps.
Everything is connected via single ended RCA...

In the price no object world (wherein I do not live) - a prepro with a stack of amps, and everything connected via balanced XLR's might well be a reasonable option (space might also be an issue... but if price is no object, one assumes that space won't be an issue either!)

Today, as things stand, the best quality, budget, prepro's, are all AVR's.

Thanks for this post. I've been struggling with replacing my 2010 preamp/processor happily providing 5.1 via external amps and great speakers, but stuck in 1080p land. I've worked around this feeding all my video into a 4k TV and doing ARC from TV to preamp, but have reliability issues. I'm more budget constrained than I was in the past, so the idea of a receiver really opens up things.

 

[dlaloum]

Thanks for this post. I've been struggling with replacing my 2010 preamp/processor happily providing 5.1 via external amps and great speakers, but stuck in 1080p land. I've worked around this feeding all my video into a 4k TV and doing ARC from TV to preamp, but have reliability issues. I'm more budget constrained than I was in the past, so the idea of a receiver really opens up things.

My previous flagship AVR, had the same pre circuit boards as the prepro (Integra DTR 70.4) - but without the Balanced outputs - I compared it to my current far far cheaper AVR (Integra DRX 3.4) - which is less than half the price of the earlier one - and in preamp terms, performance is identical... (based on my personal subjective tests)
The addition of Dirac (within the new AVR) has lifted overall system performance to a new level... which I am very happy with.

The downside, is that the new AVR has "weak" power amp section, which does not handle my rather difficult speakers well, but with external amps plugged in, performance has been exemplary.

 

[TSB]

If you Google the insides of the Arcam AV40 and Anthem AVM70, you'll see a "stunning similarity" in the circuit boards used.
On the Anthem AVM70, areas of the power supply are not populated with components.
Under certain circumstances, the additional effort in the Arcam AV40 in the power supply has a positive effect on the sound.

Maybe I misunderstood: are you implying the Arcam AV40 and the Anthem AVM70 are shared designs?

(I'm quite confident that's not the case.)

It looks from the pictures like they are using the same HDMI board though.

 

[Descartes]

Could Anthem OEM their processors?