L.O.T.S. (Loudspeaker Optimization Techniques for Soundstage)

[krabapple]

I stumbled on this Youtube presentation. It basically advises the rule of thirds for listening position (main LP located 1/3 of room length from the back wall), and rule of 3rds -- 4ths for side to side loudspeaker placement. The big variable is then the distance of the speakers from the front wall (or to put it from a different perspective, distance/angle to the LP) , which is what most of this is about. The method is presented as a revelation (the phrase 'rule of thirds' is not used), if not something speaker manufacturers and audio articles have been 'hiding' from consumers all these years.

It involves laying out a pair of masking tape 'railroad tracks' (or ladders) in your room, whose 'rails' demark the 1/4 and 1/3 distance from each side wall. Add masking tape 'sleepers' within them every 12 inches. Starting with speakers next to you (90 degree placement) , and moving them forward along the tracks in 1-foot increments, listening in the dark, eyes open, to some familiar music, he promises you will find a 'magic' spot where 'soundstage' (likened to going from low contrast to high contrast visual image) pops into being. That's where you stop. Then you tweak the side to side placement further each track, and finally add some toe-in to taste. (He talks also about height/rake angle -- I guess adjustable speaker stands aren't on the menu). And then I guess you rip up all that wild masking tape art you're created on the floor.

Worth a try...some of us (like: me) probably already settled on rule of 3rds/4th placements by design or via trial and error -- though when I see people's rooms posted in audio forums, there's a surprising number of systems with speakers slammed up against the front wall and/or hugging a central rack of gear.

 

[pozz]

I stumbled on this Youtube presentation. It basically advises the rule of thirds for listening position (main LP located 1/3 of room length from the back wall), and rule of 3rds -- 4ths for side to side loudspeaker placement. The big variable is then the distance of the speakers from the front wall (or to put it from a different perspective, distance/angle to the LP) , which is what most of this is about. The method is presented as a revelation (the phrase 'rule of thirds' is not used), if not something speaker manufacturers and audio articles have been 'hiding' from consumers all these years.

It involves laying out a pair of masking tape 'railroad tracks' (or ladders) in your room, whose 'rails' demark the 1/4 and 1/3 distance from each side wall. Add masking tape 'sleepers' within them every 12 inches. Starting with speakers next to you (90 degree placement) , and moving them forward along the tracks in 1-foot increments, listening in the dark, eyes open, to some familiar music, he promises you will find a 'magic' spot where 'soundstage' (likened to going from low contrast to high contrast visual image) pops into being. That's where you stop. Then you tweak the side to side placement further each track, and finally add some toe-in to taste. (He talks also about height/rake angle -- I guess adjustable speaker stands aren't on the menu). And then I guess you rip up all that wild masking tape art you're created on the floor.

Worth a try...some of us (like: me) probably already settled on rule of 3rds/4th placements by design or via trial and error -- though when I see people's rooms posted in audio forums, there's a surprising number of systems with speakers slammed up against the front wall and/or hugging a central rack of gear.

There's nothing like this in any acoustics text.

If the speakers are audiophile stuff, with uncontrolled directivity, etc., and you aren't measuring and EQing for each position, the process becomes something random.

 

[sarumbear]

I stumbled on this Youtube presentation. It basically advises the rule of thirds for listening position (main LP located 1/3 of room length from the back wall), and rule of 3rds -- 4ths for side to side loudspeaker placement. The big variable is then the distance of the speakers from the front wall (or to put it from a different perspective, distance/angle to the LP) , which is what most of this is about. The method is presented as a revelation (the phrase 'rule of thirds' is not used), if not something speaker manufacturers and audio articles have been 'hiding' from consumers all these years.

It involves laying out a pair of masking tape 'railroad tracks' (or ladders) in your room, whose 'rails' demark the 1/4 and 1/3 distance from each side wall. Add masking tape 'sleepers' within them every 12 inches. Starting with speakers next to you (90 degree placement) , and moving them forward along the tracks in 1-foot increments, listening in the dark, eyes open, to some familiar music, he promises you will find a 'magic' spot where 'soundstage' (likened to going from low contrast to high contrast visual image) pops into being. That's where you stop. Then you tweak the side to side placement further each track, and finally add some toe-in to taste. (He talks also about height/rake angle -- I guess adjustable speaker stands aren't on the menu). And then I guess you rip up all that wild masking tape art you're created on the floor.

Worth a try...some of us (like: me) probably already settled on rule of 3rds/4th placements by design or via trial and error -- though when I see people's rooms posted in audio forums, there's a surprising number of systems with speakers slammed up against the front wall and/or hugging a central rack of gear.

It’s on YouTube, it has to be revelation.

 

[krabapple]

There's nothing like this in any acoustics text.

Some bits of it are, if by 'acoustics texts' you mean books or articles on setting up home audio. That's why I mentioned the rule of thirds.

If the speakers are audiophile stuff, with uncontrolled directivity, etc., and you aren't measuring and EQing for each position, the process becomes something random.

For sure, this can't compare with doing actual measurements. But the average consumer , and even the average audiophile, doesn't do that. This at least gets the user experimenting with different placements rather than just 'up against the front wall' or 'in the corners'

 

[alex-z]

Let me guess, another Youtuber acting like they invented the art of speaker placement yet with a phobia of a measurement mic.

There is always speaker boundary interference with the surfaces of your room, every placement choice has a compromise. Shoving your speakers close to a wall shifts the interference into the mid-range, where acoustic treatment works best. Pulling them away from walls compromises the mid-bass instead.

If your stereo imaging goes from bad to good "magically" then you probably have speakers with bad horizontal directivity.

 

[bunkbail]

Let me guess, another Youtuber acting like they invented the art of speaker placement yet with a phobia of a measurement mic.

@New Record Day always measures the speakers he reviews using his CLIO pocket. Not sure about this LOTS method though, haven't watched the video yet.

 

[KSTR]

Basically, this guy is sort of right but then again it's almost trvial. There is a large possible number of speaker and listening positions which obey to the basic requirements of an equilateral triangle with the speakers at +-30deg or so, and at some reasonable distance as well as being highly symmetrical.
But only a few of these positions give a preferred soundstage, image size etc (and this tends to remain so even when full DRC is applied, IME).
Yet another restricted set gives the best (most averaged) results wrt room modes excitation and sense points even before DRC is applied. Sometimes a few positions remain where both aspects are featured, and any systematic approach to find them using shift grids etc is better (more effective) than random re-positioning.

For sure, measuring and inspecting is always better for solid results but there is a lot of things you can do already with ears only**). You learn something (at least I did) and it's fun unless you have major boat anchor speakers ;-)
**) Almost decades ago I made a nice 'shaped and timed sine-burst sequences' test signal CD to really highlight both frequency response and temporal effects of room modes in ears-only tests, I'll definitely will publish the files here, promised...

 

[Frgirard]

Finding the sweet spot in the room - Gearspace.com

Something is not set up right. You have some kind of noise in the readings.

gearspace.com

 

[pozz]

Some bits of it are, if by 'acoustics texts' you mean books or articles on setting up home audio. That's why I mentioned the rule of thirds.




For sure, this can't compare with doing actual measurements. But the average consumer , and even the average audiophile, doesn't do that. This at least gets the user experimenting with different placements rather than just 'up against the front wall' or 'in the corners'

I meant academic texts. Rigorous stuff.

I think content like this is really unhelpful because it promises too much and muddles everything else. If you follow it you end up knowing less, not more. The average audiophile/consumer are what they are because crap like this is the norm.

 

[krabapple]

I meant academic texts. Rigorous stuff.

LOL. OK.

I think content like this is really unhelpful because it promises too much and muddles everything else. If you follow it you end up knowing less, not more. The average audiophile/consumer are what they are because crap like this is the norm.

How do you end up knowing 'less' when you learn through systematic incremental adjustments, how much even seemingly minor differences in placement really matter?

Old news to us. But one only has to read the comments to see how this is news to some consumers.

 

[Chromatischism]

The method works because instead of starting at the wall and pulling them forward, it is easier to hear when things snap into place by bringing them abnormally forward and pushing them back.

 

[Hipper]

This strikes me as an inversion of the 38% rule (https://realtraps.com/art_room-setup.htm) and Harry Pearson's Rule of Thirds. These tend to position the speaker and/or listener away from the nodes or antinodes for the first- and second-order axial modes related to length and width.

I always thought the purpose of positioning was principally to smooth the bass, as youngho says, but also to reduce the impact of reflections, mainly from the side wall.

If you want to do the job properly positioning is only the start of improving the sound. Any or all of room treatment, DSP/EQ and subs are also required, not to mention the reduction of ambient noise.

This is the version of 'The Thirds' that I used:

http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/monitoring.htm

 

[Chromatischism]

I always thought the purpose of positioning was principally to smooth the bass, as youngho says, but also to reduce the impact of reflections, mainly from the side wall.

It's also to find where the two speakers mesh for the best stereo image, which I don't know how you would do with measurements.

 

[krabapple]

This strikes me as an inversion of the 38% rule (https://realtraps.com/art_room-setup.htm) and Harry Pearson's Rule of Thirds. These tend to position the speaker and/or listener away from the nodes or antinodes for the first- and second-order axial modes related to length and width.

His listener position recommendation is the rule of thirds. He's placing the LP at 1/3 of the room length, from the back wall.

His loudspeaker width positioning is within 1/3 and 1/4 of the the room width.

So as I said, the place where his method may depart from those well-known (to some audiophiles) recommendations, is the front to back speaker positioning. I would not be surprised if some users ended up with speakers placed 33-38% into the room lengthwise, using his incremental placement/listening method. (They may, however, find that to be rather closer than they are used to, in a small room)

I'm mainly demeriting him for presenting this all as something new or previously 'hidden', when we know it's not, and giving it its own acronym. Otherwise I think it's pretty positive as internet audio how-tos go. Sure, measurements will get you more reliable results. That's also quite a time and intellectual investment (though for some, fun), plus requiring a bit of extra gear. This guy's exercise is a simpler and potentially fun learning experience that stands a real chance of improving a typical setup. By typical I mean...virtually every 'civilian' (i.e., not audio obsessed like me ) I've known in 60 years has set up their systems with speakers and LP in quite suboptimal places -- flat against a wall, in corners, recessed in bookcases, on top of glass computer tables, high up on shelves, pointed straight out... This guy's method would at least get them to think outside those boxes.

 

[antennaguru]

Yes, I understand. The 38% rule suggests positioning the listener 38% of the distance from the front wall. He's suggesting positioning the listener 1/3 of the distance from the back wall. That's why it struck me as an inversion. Harry Pearson's rule of thirds suggesting positioning the loudspeaker 1/3 of the distance from the front wall and the listener 1/3 of the distance from the back wall. This method starts with the listener at that position but moves the loudspeakers. Considering HP's rule of thirds further, however, it seems like one could end up with the same SBIR from the front wall as the back wall.

I understand that, too. The rationale behind 1/3 or 38% applies here, as well, but you do want the loudspeakers separated sufficiently, so there's a bit of a compromise to be made.

The listener will be much further back in the room than typical. One possible issue is that the reflection off the wall behind the listener would be much stronger than conventional setups and would very likely benefit from treatment.

Would any "civilian" give up so much of the room to the stereo and take so much time taping the train tracks and making incremental adjustments? It seems to me like conventional wisdom like at least 3' from the wall behind the speakers, at least 3' from the walls nearest each speaker (but preferable if not the same as the distance from the wall behind the speakers, a la Royo Allison), and make an equilateral triangle with the speakers pointing at the listening position would be a reasonable improvement over flat against the wall, in corners, recessed, etc.

Also, I don't understand why positioning the listener 1/3 of the way from the back wall would be expected to improve soundstaging.

1/3 or so room behind the listener reduces the impact of back wall reflections. Soft wall hangings or diffusers help as well.

 

[antennaguru]

?1/3 or so room behind the listener reduces the impact of back rear wall reflections compared with 2/3 or so room behind the listener? Soft wall hangings or diffusers, not considering the relative distances? What would I possibly say further? @krabapple and @antennaguru, I think you may have found your ideal mates. I will not comment further in this thread.

Not my fault you have never heard good sound reproduction my frend...

 

[youngho]

@antennaguru thank you for reminding me why I shouldn't engage. I've deleted my involvement.

 

[Hipper]

It's also to find where the two speakers mesh for the best stereo image, which I don't know how you would do with measurements.

I thought the way to do that was to move the speakers apart until there was a hole in the phantom image, then move them back a bit so that the phantom image was solid.

Of course a lot of the stereo image you will hear will be due to the quality of the recording which is highly variable..

 

[krabapple]

@antennaguru thank you for reminding me why I shouldn't engage. I've deleted my involvement.

I'm sorry you left....your posts are always good food for thought.

What I was going to note is that a LP 1/3 of room length from the back wall *could* mean intrusive back wall reflections needing mitigation...or not. Depends on the length of the room.

Far more prevalent, among the 'civilians' I know, is placing their couch/LP right up against the back wall! That's always going to cause issues.


(FWIW one thing I never see discussed much, though it's glanced upon in Dr. Toole's book, is the perceptual 'weight' of in-room reflections in a 4.x or higher system)

 

[CauliflowerEars]

I would not be surprised if some users ended up with speakers placed 33-38% into the room lengthwise, using his incremental placement/listening method. (They may, however, find that to be rather closer than they are used to, in a small room)

I just stumbled upon his video and the best ‘magic’ placement ended up being … speakers almost half way of the room’s length … 1.1m from my LP pretty near field listening).
Even though moving the speakers back, closer to the front wall didn’t sound as good, placing them more apart ended up better. I’m curious:

1) How is the placement within the room supposed to influence the soundstage? I can understand how it’d the FR, reflections, etc.
2) Is this method much different from the classic equilateral triangle?
3) What’s the most tried and tested method of speaker/LP placement anyway?