KTB vs Topping E30 listening tests

[M00ndancer]

But the first moment you hear the Khadas and the Topping, you know which is better..

Uh huh... Here we go again.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Yes, I know the moment you start to pick blind, you're not so sure anymore.
But the first moment you hear the Khadas and the Topping, you know which is better..

lol. Oh man...

 

[BusDriver]

Yes, I know the moment you start to pick blind, you're not so sure anymore.
But the first moment you hear the Khadas and the Topping, you know which is better..

So if you're not so sure when you listen blind, but know the difference when you see them. You're pretty much saying that sight alters your perception of sound? This is actually true since your senses all influence each other. However, as the products are primarily made to produce sound, shouldn't that visual influence be eliminated when you're trying to compare them? If you're buying purely on cosmetics and don't care about the price difference, all the power to you, but since this is an audio board, you can't fault people wanting to get to the bottom of... well... audio.

 

[threni]

Yes, I know the moment you start to pick blind, you're not so sure anymore.
But the first moment you hear the Khadas and the Topping, you know which is better..

What happens when you compare the two blind? You appear to be contradicting yourself.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Interesting.....It was mentioned e30 likely would go louder than ktb. But when checking L30 preout, the opposite is true.

Playing 400 Hz tone, L30 at zero gain, knob at 12 noon:
AC measured with RCA cable connected with L30 preout:
KTB: 0.077 V
E30: 0.075 V

Playing 400 Hz tone, L30 at +9 db gain, knob at 12 noon:
KTB: 0.231 V
E30: 0.225 V

Maybe this is the difference between using coaxial for KTB vs optical for E30? Edit: Nope. Checked with e30 coaxial in and got similar result.

Should I care about the differences of 0.002V in voltage? I was listening at the no gain, noon knob position most of the time yesterday. Should I skip volume matching check with headphones? Maybe simply move on to speakers test?

 

[solderdude]

Set the E30 to DAC mode instead of pre-amp mode.

400Hz at 0dBFS and using a voltmeter that has at least a 20V AC setting (better if it can also measure 200mV AC) with windows volume maxd out should read close to 2V.
When your voltmeter has 200VAC s lowest setting you cannot use this meter.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Set the E30 to DAC mode instead of pre-amp mode.

400Hz at 0dBFS and using a voltmeter that has at least a 20V AC setting (better if it can also measure 200mV AC) with windows volume maxd out should read close to 2V.
When your voltmeter has 200VAC s lowest setting you cannot use this meter.

Thanks.

I checked first with DAC mode, then Pre mode, same result.

I see. I do have the type with 200VAC.....I guess need to buy new one....

 

[solderdude]

Yes, or you can turn the input of your PC/laptop with lineinput into a meter (there is freeware available).
You can also use the meter on the output of the L30 but set the volume higher (+9dB gain) so you measure about 4.5V AC
Don't leave headphones connected !
That will be close to 5VAC in reality, and is be enough for matching volume.

 

[Pdxwayne]

.....
You can also use the meter on the output of the L30 but set the volume higher (+9dB gain) so you measure about 4.5V AC
Don't leave headphones connected !
That will be close to 5VAC in reality, and is be enough for matching volume.

You meant I can still use my current meter, but just need to measure at highest volume of L30? You also meant measure the headphones amp output, right?

Thanks!

 

[solderdude]

correct, the actual value will be incorrect but at least you can see how much they deviate.
However, you cannot calculate the real percentage or dB but you can see if it is close enough for this purpose.
Measuring the line-out from the L30 is enough, should be the same as the headphone out.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

So have we already reached the conclusion that the previous claims of better detail retrieval via the KTB made in the E30 thread which were what lead us to this thread were based on incredibly unreliable and essentially meaningless subjective test conditions and were probably not the reality? Because that was really the point being made in that thread...me being the guy that was making the point and all that. We're now concerned with volume-matching within .002v and what have you...it seems we've shifted the parameters of what this was initially all about.

 

[Pdxwayne]

So have we already reached the conclusion that the previous claims of better detail retrieval via the KTB made in the E30 thread which were what lead us to this thread were based on incredibly unreliable and essentially meaningless subjective test conditions and were probably not the reality? Because that was really the point being made in that thread...me being the guy that was making the point and all that. We're now concerned with volume-matching within .002v and what have you...it seems we've shifted the parameters of what this was initially all about.

Getting there....will reach a conclusion once I am done with speakers test.

My initial impression with KTB was based on listening with stereo amp and speakers in a small room for weeks. My impression with E30 was based on using L30 with headphones, because I already moved my speakers system out of the small room.

The comparison listening tests done so far is using quick switch with headphone amp and headphones.

Next is with speakers that supposed to be more transparent than the headphones. That is why there is still discussion about matching volume.

I already shared the thd measurements of my headphones and speakers in this thread. Care to comment if those differences matter or not?

 

[M00ndancer]

Getting there....will reach a conclusion once I am done with speakers test.

You're doing good in my book. Willing to do a proper test. I will read the conclusion with great interest. Please keep going. Although I know the answer it's still heartwarming to see your journey. (not trying to sound condescending) It's the road to enlightenment. I'm so tired of all the recent "but I can hear a difference" posts with no other agenda to troll this forum or not wanting to be challenged. o7

 

[Pdxwayne]

You're doing good in my book. Willing to do a proper test. I will read the conclusion with great interest. Please keep going. Although I know the answer it's still heartwarming to see your journey. (not trying to sound condescending) It's the road to enlightenment. I'm so tired of all the recent "but I can hear a difference" posts with no other agenda to troll this forum or not wanting to be challenged. o7

Yeah, I suspect speakers testing won't be much different as compared to headphones, but still want to go through with it.

I will need a quiet room. My previous listening bedroom, where I spent weeks listening to KTB with speakers, no longer available (son back from college and reclaim the room). I have living room and family room, but wide open to all the background noises. Also can't play loud as it will bother family members.

I think moving my speakers setup to my master bedroom and close the door for listening tests may be best option for now.

 

[Pdxwayne]

correct, the actual value will be incorrect but at least you can see how much they deviate.
However, you cannot calculate the real percentage or dB but you can see if it is close enough for this purpose.
Measuring the line-out from the L30 is enough, should be the same as the headphone out.

Measurements #1:
400 Hz Test tone (supposed to be -3db) from YouTube, max BT volume from Phone, node2i max volume, L30 at +9db, volume knob max, here is what I got from L30 preout:

KTB: 1.383 V
E30:. 1.348 V
Both DAC powered by external supply.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Measurements 2:
Laptop via USB. REW Sine Wave at 400 Hz at -3 dBFS.
L30 @ +9db, knob full volume
L30 preout measurements:
KTB: 6.23 V
E30: 6.07 V.

 

[solderdude]

KTB: 1.383 V
E30:. 1.348 V

About 0.16dB difference

 

[Pdxwayne]

About 0.16dB difference

May I know how to do such calculation? Thx!

 

[solderdude]

KTB: 6.23 V
E30: 6.07 V.

about 0.21dB difference.

Just a tad too much when comparing directly but you won't be switching between outputs directly.

Next attempt... try to figure out which DAC is which in a blind comparison (have someone randomly plug in 1 of the 2 DACs)
The helper can also try to bait you by unplugging DAC A and plugging it in back again, even a few times.

Make 20 'attempts' with random DAC and figure out by ear only which is which. The 0.2dB is no issue when time has passed between attempts.
You can spread this test over several days. It is fatiguing after some time.

Good luck telling them apart.

 

[solderdude]

May I know how to do such calculation? Thx!

I take into account that the meter doesn't show the first 0.5V and thus add 0.5V to the measured values and then calculate the difference in voltage.