KTB vs Topping E30 listening tests

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

First of all, there were 3 songs. I gave my son no clue as to which is which. He listened and asked for multiple switches before deciding. Afterward, my son said 1 and 3 songs were easier to identify. I already said why I think 2nd song is harder.

What validated my points more? A person (me) who you claim to have a biasto start with, or two people who care not and know not about my setup?

Fair enough. But if he came to an early conclusion - like the first time he listened he thought maybe he heard a difference - and then you changed back and forth on his request without altering the order (by fooling him with a fake change), he could very well have just re-enforced his own initial impression with each switch. That's more or less what happens with confirmation bias. Once you think you hear something, you easily convince yourself you hear something.

But the reason I keep harping on you being the one who made the initial claim is because the fundamental issue is that people come on to forums and make specific claims about what they hear that start pages-long debates and then you find out their impressions were actually based on listening to things weeks or months apart. You made the claim so it's you who should be proving it really...

 

[Pdxwayne]

Good for you for continuing to mess around with this.

How did you match the volume levels? Was any of this unsighted?

There was no volume matching. I said earlier in the thread that the volume difference was so small (based on measured voltages output, especially at normal listening volume) I would start without attempting to volume match.
Note that KTB is supposed to be the slightly louder one based on voltage measurements. This make it hard to quickly do volume matching as I can't adjust KTB volume down. Next, I am thinking maybe using L30 to increase E30 voltage slightly to match KTB. Sounds reasonable?

I was using a quick switch. My son didn't know which is which he was listening to. He didn't even care to ask what I am switching between.

I just tell him to listen for the sharper one. He can ask me to switch anytime and any number of time and decide when he is sure.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Fair enough. But if he came to an early conclusion - like the first time he listened he thought maybe he heard a difference - and then you changed back and forth on his request without altering the order (by fooling him with a fake change), he could very well have just re-enforced his own initial impression with each switch. That's more or less what happens with confirmation bias. Once you think you hear something, you easily convince yourself you hear something.

But the reason I keep harping on you being the one who made the initial claim is because the fundamental issue is that people come on to forums and make specific claims about what they hear that start pages-long debates and then you find out their impressions were actually based on listening to things weeks or months apart. You made the claim so it's you who should be proving it really...

When I was doing sighted quick switch myself, I thought I could hear a very slight difference. Unfortunely, none of my kids wanted to help me do blind test where I am the listener.... Maybe my wife will help sometimes this week....

 

[solderdude]

Now it is time to record the output of both DACs (24/192) and analyze the output.
For something to sound 'sharp' you need a substantial boost between 7kHz and 15kHz.
Both DACs won't do that so the same songs should be recorded and analyzed.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Now it is time to record the output of both DACs (24/192) and analyze the output.
For something to sound 'sharp' you need a substantial boost between 7kHz and 15kHz.

I wished I did a recording of KTB before firmware update. It was so sharp that it hurts. After latest firmware update, KTB sound more like E30 now and less sharp....Still, there should be a slight difference bases on my kids observations.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

I wished I did a recording of KTB before firmware update. It was so sharp that it hurts. After latest firmware update, KTB sound more like E30 now and less sharp....Still, there should be a slight difference bases on my kids observations.

a difference that would be audible in the kind of test you are doing would be easily apparent in measurements.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Now it is time to record the output of both DACs (24/192) and analyze the output.
For something to sound 'sharp' you need a substantial boost between 7kHz and 15kHz.
Both DACs won't do that so the same songs should be recorded and analyzed.

BTW, may I know if you have suggestions for low cost capture device that would do 24/192 correctly?

 

[Pdxwayne]

a difference that would be audible in the kind of test you are doing would be easily apparent in measurements.

Same question to you, do you have a suggestion for low cost capture device that would do 24/192 capture correctly?

 

[Pdxwayne]

I thought today instead of recording music output, how about measuring voltage output instead? I would say the results speak for itself. Indeed, KTB has more output in the high frequencies.

My steps:
* First, find out the max voltage of my typical listening volume. I listen to Node2i playing back Tidal master music at a good listening volume. I then check KTB output to check for maximum voltage out. For that one song I listened at good volume, the max voltage out of KTB was ~0.49V.
*Second, measure KTB voltage at a certain freq, and use that as baseline for 0.49V output. I decided to use 120Hz at ~0.49 V as baseline. Using USB out from my laptop, play from REW tone generator at -16 dBFS, 120HZ tone would generate 0.49V from KTB left RAC out.
*Third, match E30 output voltage at 120Hz to 0.49V. As is, REW tone generator at -16 dBFS, E30 left RAC output can only reach 0.479V. I decided to connect E30 to L30, and adjust L30 Preamp output up until I got 0.49V out from L30 left RCA out. Do the same for KTB just for comparison purposes, in case L30 does something odd.
*Forth, measure KTB, KTB to L30, and E30 to L30., Starting from 120Hz tone, all output ~0.49V to start.

Results:
E30 has less and less voltage output as frequencies increases, as compared to KTB. See attached pic.

 

[SIY]

I thought today instead of recording music output, how about measuring voltage output instead? I would say the results speak for itself. Indeed, KTB has more output in the high frequencies.

My steps:
* First, find out the max voltage of my typical listening volume. I listen to Node2i playing back Tidal master music at a good listening volume. I then check KTB output to check for maximum voltage out. For that one song I listened at good volume, the max voltage out of KTB was ~0.49V.
*Second, measure KTB voltage at a certain freq, and use that as baseline for 0.49V output. I decided to use 120Hz at ~0.49 V as baseline. Using USB out from my laptop, play from REW tone generator at -16 dBFS, 120HZ tone would generate 0.49V from KTB left RAC out.
*Third, match E30 output voltage at 120Hz to 0.49V. As is, REW tone generator at -16 dBFS, E30 left RAC output can only reach 0.479V. I decided to connect E30 to L30, and adjust L30 Preamp output up until I got 0.49V out from L30 left RCA out. Do the same for KTB just for comparison purposes, in case L30 does something odd.
*Forth, measure KTB, KTB to L30, and E30 to L30., Starting from 120Hz tone, all output ~0.49V to start.

Results:
E30 has less and less voltage output as frequencies increases, as compared to KTB. See attached pic.

View attachment 100043

What did you use for measuring voltage? The data look like the meter has a high frequency limit, very common with DVMs.

 

[ElNino]

I thought today instead of recording music output, how about measuring voltage output instead? I would say the results speak for itself. Indeed, KTB has more output in the high frequencies.

My steps:
* First, find out the max voltage of my typical listening volume. I listen to Node2i playing back Tidal master music at a good listening volume. I then check KTB output to check for maximum voltage out. For that one song I listened at good volume, the max voltage out of KTB was ~0.49V.
*Second, measure KTB voltage at a certain freq, and use that as baseline for 0.49V output. I decided to use 120Hz at ~0.49 V as baseline. Using USB out from my laptop, play from REW tone generator at -16 dBFS, 120HZ tone would generate 0.49V from KTB left RAC out.
*Third, match E30 output voltage at 120Hz to 0.49V. As is, REW tone generator at -16 dBFS, E30 left RAC output can only reach 0.479V. I decided to connect E30 to L30, and adjust L30 Preamp output up until I got 0.49V out from L30 left RCA out. Do the same for KTB just for comparison purposes, in case L30 does something odd.
*Forth, measure KTB, KTB to L30, and E30 to L30., Starting from 120Hz tone, all output ~0.49V to start.

Results:
E30 has less and less voltage output as frequencies increases, as compared to KTB. See attached pic.

View attachment 100043

What digital filter are you using on the E30?

 

[Pdxwayne]

What did you use for measuring voltage? The data look like the meter has a high frequency limit, very common with DVMs.

Does it matter? A difference is a difference....

 

[Pdxwayne]

What digital filter are you using on the E30?

I press the remote and I got f6. Which means I have been using filter 5.

 

[SIY]

Does it matter? A difference is a difference....

Yes, it matters. So does filter setting if that’s selectable.

You can’t measure a bacterium with a yardstick.

 

[SIY]

What digital filter are you using on the E30?

That’s important! A few years ago, I did a review of the RME DAC, and my co-author reported to me that it sounded dull. And he was right. Turned out, the filter setting was one of the “NOS” choices and caused a significant rolloff. Changing it to a more normal setting, the response was flat and the dullness disappeared.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Yes, it matters. So does filter setting if that’s selectable.

You can’t measure a bacterium with a yardstick.

So it doesn't matter if the measurements were consistent for KTB via KTB out or L30 out? It doesn't matter each time I measured, I got consistent results for E30 too?

Anyway, it is Klein Tools MM200.

 

[Pdxwayne]

That’s important! A few years ago, I did a review of the RME DAC, and my co-author reported to me that it sounded dull. And he was right. Turned out, the filter setting was one of the “NOS” choices and caused a significant rolloff. Changing it to a more normal setting, the response was flat and the dullness disappeared.

It was filter 5 for E30. No filter selectable for KTB.

 

[SIY]

It was filter 5 for E30. No filter selectable for KTB.

What kind of filter is that?

 

[Pdxwayne]

What kind of filter is that?

I read that it is super slow. I would say filter does not really matter as those affect only 20K and up. My measurements only until 10K.

 

[NTK]

...
Anyway, it is Klein Tools MM200.

You are measuring the frequency response of your DMM using the DAC's, not the other way around.