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KEF LS50 Bookshelf Speaker Review

wwenze

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Measurements were performed at around 57 degrees at elevation of 14 feet above sea level. All scents were neutralized in the lab as to eliminate their effect on measurements (had to take a shower myself).

This reminds me of a joke/satire. You know how people are always talking about cables. Yet I have seen none - zero - nada people talk about wireless connections (antenna, reflections, humidity, dielectric constant of the air) or the effect of the air itself on the speakers. And I have the support of band members for the latter.

BTW you forgot to account for the coriolis effect. But I assume you're at a latitude of 47.6° N
 

Kyle / MrHeeHo

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This has me wondering, what are the merits of using cocentric driver designs if a speaker like the LSR305P can perform well for a significantly lower price? Is it for the purpose of marketing, is the main benefit having similar vertical and horizontal performance or are there more benefits I'm not considering?
 

LeftCoastTim

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This has me wondering, what are the merits of using cocentric driver designs if a speaker like the LSR305P can perform well for a significantly lower price? Is it for the purpose of marketing, is the main benefit having similar vertical and horizontal performance or are there more benefits I'm not considering?

Because "audiophile".
 

napilopez

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This has me wondering, what are the merits of using cocentric driver designs if a speaker like the LSR305P can perform well for a significantly lower price? Is it for the purpose of marketing, is the main benefit having similar vertical and horizontal performance or are there more benefits I'm not considering?

Because "audiophile".

As with everything in audio, it's a trade-off. Vertical directivity is a huge part of it - it can greatly shape timbre in a room. Even vertical directivity also helps ensure consistent timbre in different listening spaces. Some people also like the time alignment aspect of it though there's not that much evidence to suggest it's a hugely preferred attribute. Downsides are limiting excursion and area, which is why for KEF it tends to work best in 3-way designs. There's also intermodulation distortion but how much that audibly degrades sound quality is hard to quantify. On most coaxials the midwoofer acts as a waveguide too, which makes few coaxials have particularly wide directivity.

Pick your poison, basically. I for one am a fan, but I'm not as crazy about coaxials as I once was, mainly because I tend to lean towards the wide directivity camp.
 

bigx5murf

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This reminds me of a joke/satire. You know how people are always talking about cables. Yet I have seen none - zero - nada people talk about wireless connections (antenna, reflections, humidity, dielectric constant of the air) or the effect of the air itself on the speakers. And I have the support of band members for the latter.

BTW you forgot to account for the coriolis effect. But I assume you're at a latitude of 47.6° N

Air quality actually has noticeable effect on vinyl playback. Dust and static(moisture) is obviously audible. I'm surprised nobody sells audiophile air purifiers for vinyl playback.
 

thewas

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I have both the LSR305P and LS50 and have listened to both with a single sub. The LS50's are much better.
I have also since many years both the LS50 and LSR305 MKI and especially with EQ I find the KEF better too as it smoother vertical directivity which is why I use them now for my desktop system and also much more acoustically dead enclosures. But are they 4 times better like their price difference? Of course not, the Pareto principle holds here also true.
 

Soniclife

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Pick your poison, basically. I for one am a fan, but I'm not as crazy about coaxials as I once was, mainly because I tend to lean towards the wide directivity camp.
Are these not wide dispersion?
 

napilopez

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Are these not wide dispersion?

Depends a bit how you define it - there isn't really a rule as far as I know. But the LS50, like most speakers with deepish waveguides, falls more towards the narrow directivity camp for me. I find this easier to assess from SPL/angle graphs and sometimes polar graphs than from the DI curves though, which more provide a general overview of DI per frequency than tell you how directivity with respect to angle.

With deep waveguides (and again, the LS50's midwoofer is a waveguide to the tweeter), you tend to see a gradual tilting of the response at greater angles.

Here's the LS50 Wireless:

SiP40dD.png


I tend to use the response at a certain angle out at a few frequencies to determine what I consider wide or narrow. Mainly I'm concerned with the region between 2-10K for soundstage purposes.

Just about every deep waveguide speaker I've tested follows this general tilting trend. (Note I only measured the LS50W out to 60 degrees as opposed to 75 on everything else). They are all down roughly 8-10 dB at 7K and 60 degrees, for instance.

Neumann KH80:
esfZtxu.png

Buchardt S400:
S400 Horizontal Response.png

KEF R3:
R3-Horizontal-1.png

Compare that to, say, the Focal Chora. At 60 degrees, it's only down about 5dB at its furthest points until the tweeter becomes hyper-directional above 10Khz.

Granted, that's in part because of some bunching and unevenness - rarely do wide dispersion speakers have directivity as controlled as those with a good, big ol' waveguide, but it's pretty easy to visualize in SPL graphs how much more energy they maintain throughout most of the frequency range. In the case of the Chora, it has more energy at 7KHz and 75 degrees than any of the above have at 60.

Chora-Horizontal.png


Similar story with the Q Acoustics Concept 20
Concept 20 Horizontal.png

Or the Devialet Phantom Reactor:
Reactor Horizontal Response (1).png

Or the Polk Legend L200:
L200 Horizontal Prelim.png

Or the Sonus Faber Sonetto II:
Sonus Faber Sonetto II.png

Lots of wide dispersion speakers will tend to maintain more energy out throughout much of the presence and treble regions, before dropping off in the top octave or two. It effectively means the sound is more "similar" in level to the direct sound, and almost always sounds more expansive.

All of these speakers have either very shallow waveguides or none at all. Direct sound aside, it's actually pretty remarkable how similar these radiation patterns tend to be. within their respective "categories." The Phantom Reactor is the most unusual one because of its unusual shape, crossover, and choice of drivers.

One Toole study even suggests people prefer a wider directivity even if the response is less even, though it doesn't seem to be something with a ton of research. That's been my personal inclination though.

But again, it depends on your definition. A speaker with a big woofer will be more directive in the bass and mids, and that can have perceptual effects too. But since most modern speakers have similar directivity before the crossover, I tend to feel I think that 2K-10K region is most responsible for soundstage, that's what I mainly consider with regards to "wide" or narrow.

Here's one chart in Toole's book describing frequency regions for the perception of soundstage. This is in a section about rooms, but it still speaks to the effect of loudspeakers.

Screenshot_20200203-121415.png
 
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Ron Texas

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I have also since many years both the LS50 and LSR305 MKI and especially with EQ I find the KEF better too as it smoother vertical directivity which is why I use them now for my desktop system and also much more acoustically dead enclosures. But are they 4 times better like their price difference? Of course not, the Pareto principle holds here also true.

How does one define 4 times better?
 

LTig

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Check out the Stein Music Harmonizer. I’m not sure if they claim it does something to the air, but I believe they make claims about it doing something to the “room.”
Magic room EQ? :D:D:D:D
 

Shazb0t

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Depends a bit how you define it - there isn't really a rule as far as I know. But the LS50, like most speakers with deepish waveguides, falls more towards the narrow directivity camp for me. I find this easier to assess from SPL/angle graphs and sometimes polar graphs than from the DI curves though, which more provide a general overview of DI per frequency than tell you how directivity with respect to angle.

With deep waveguides (and again, the LS50's midwoofer is a waveguide to the tweeter), you tend to see a gradual tilting of the response at greater angles.

Here's the LS50 Wireless:

SiP40dD.png


I tend to use the response at a certain angle out at a few frequencies to determine what I consider wide or narrow. Mainly I'm concerned with the region between 2-10K for soundstage purposes.

Just about every deep waveguide speaker I've tested follows this general tilting trend. (Note I only measured the LS50W out to 60 degrees as opposed to 75 on everything else). They are all down roughly 8-10 dB at 7K and 60 degrees, for instance.

Neumann KH80:
View attachment 48495

Buchardt S400:
View attachment 48496

KEF R3:
View attachment 48497

Compare that to, say, the Focal Chora. At 60 degrees, it's only down about 5dB at its furthest points until the tweeter becomes hyper-directional above 10Khz.

Granted, that's in part because of some bunching and unevenness - rarely do wide dispersion speakers have directivity as controlled as those with a good, big ol' waveguide, but it's pretty easy to visualize in SPL graphs how much more energy they maintain throughout most of the frequency range. In the case of the Chora, it has more energy at 7KHz and 75 degrees than any of the above have at 60.

View attachment 48498

Similar story with the Q Acoustics Concept 20
View attachment 48499

Or the Devialet Phantom Reactor:
View attachment 48500

Or the Polk Legend L200:
View attachment 48501

Or the Sonus Faber Sonetto II:
View attachment 48502

Lots of wide dispersion speakers will tend to maintain more energy out throughout much of the presence and treble regions, before dropping off in the top octave or two. It effectively means the sound is more "similar" in level to the direct sound, and almost always sounds more expansive.

All of these speakers have either very shallow waveguides or none at all. Direct sound aside, it's actually pretty remarkable how similar these radiation patterns tend to be. within their respective "categories." The Phantom Reactor is the most unusual one because of its unusual shape, crossover, and choice of drivers.

One Toole study even suggests people prefer a wider directivity even if the response is less even, though it doesn't seem to be something with a ton of research. That's been my personal inclination though.

But again, it depends on your definition. A speaker with a big woofer will be more directive in the bass and mids, and that can have perceptual effects too. But since most modern speakers have similar directivity before the crossover, I tend to feel I think that 2K-10K region is most responsible for soundstage, that's what I mainly consider with regards to "wide" or narrow.

Here's one chart in Toole's book describing frequency regions for the perception of soundstage:

View attachment 48507
I don't know the technicalities of how to classify dispersion, but I feel like the examples you used to show "narrow" dispersion are speakers that have more even dispersion patterns than the speakers you consider to be "wide" dispersion. The "narrow" ones have even rolloff as you go wider out as opposed to falling on their faces at the tweeter crossover. This is going to show up as a cleaner measurement in the spinorama for directivity indexes if I am not mistaken.
 

Soniclife

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But again, it depends on your definition. A speaker with a big woofer will be more directive in the bass and mids, and that can have perceptual effects too.
That's the bit that I was thinking about more, the whole range, not just the tweeter. Below the tweeter most modern narrow speakers are wide, I hadn't thought to limit the impression of width just to part of the range. Did you test the 8c or kii 3, if so does their almost full range narrowness change your preference? I need to hear those myself to form my own impression.
 

napilopez

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I don't know the technicalities of how to classify dispersion, but I feel like the examples you used to show "narrow" dispersion are speakers that have more even dispersion patterns than the speakers you consider to be "wide" dispersion. The "narrow" ones have even rolloff as you go wider out as opposed to falling on their faces at the tweeter crossover. This is going to show up as a cleaner measurement in the spinorama for directivity indexes if I am not mistaken.

Yes, you are correct. That's the job of the waveguide, after all, evening out dispersion. But the region above 10Khz isn't all that important imo. It's all about the direct sound at that point anyway, so it's highly contingent upon toe-in, and most people don't have great hearing up there anyway.

As mentioned before, it also seems people will often prefer somewhat uneven wide dispersion over even wide dispersion. To that effect, it seems to me narrower dispersion speakers often have more "precise" sounding soundstages, while wide dispersion ones are more expansive and have a wider sweetspot with a typical configuration.

The general difference I see is that the big waveguide speakers tend to try to smoothly balance the change in frequency while wider speakers tend to keep as much energy as possible out to extreme angles.

In my experience from reading every spin I can find and making a few of my own, the DI curves in the spinorama aren't necessarily all that much worse, since part of that depends on the vertical dispersion too, and any initial bunching tends to be averaged out by the time you factor in a full 180 degrees of measurements.


That's the bit that I was thinking about more, the whole range, not just the tweeter. Below the tweeter most modern narrow speakers are wide, I hadn't thought to limit the impression of width just to part of the range. Did you test the 8c or kii 3, if so does their almost full range narrowness change your preference? I need to hear those myself to form my own impression.

Yeah, since just about everything has a 5-8 inch woofer these days, I've never found that area to be particularly important. But the tweeter is greatly affected by size, shape, and waveguide, so directivity is all over the place across different speakers.

I'm currently testing the 8C, and it's definitely my favorite in the waveguidey camp. The advantage to narrower directivity designs is that you can mess around a bit more with toe in to get the spatial qualities you like. However my impression is also that they tend to be more sensitive to sweet spot unless you use extreme toe-in (speakers crossing in front of the listening position).
 

hardisj

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