I completely disagree with your assessment of the importance of efficiency and SQ, but that argument has been beaten to death in many posts here and else. No need to dig it up again. You bet on your horse and I'll bet on mine.
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JBL HDI-1600 Speaker Review
- Thread starter amirm
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Regardless, my general position is, other people can measure irrelevancies. That goes exponentially so when measuring irrelevancies costs me extra time or effort. So unless there's grounds heard in subjective listening to suspect an issue (which has happened) I won't measure irrelevances such as sensitivity, time domain, distortion, etc. for any DUT in my possession. I will take the time and effort to measure off axis frequency response in as much detail as I can and share that information in multiple forms, because that matters.
I know how to do it, but do you think all the visitors to our our site do? Every manufacturers spec sheet and outside review I've ever seen has that spec posted predominately and have not expected the reader to deduce it from a graph or go digging down deeper levels to find it?
In any case it's up to Amir, I'm only thinking about our readers and making ASR easy for them to understand.
You just love to argue with me don't you. The very first Home Theater speaker review I checked,
"Given the similarities between the F228Be and F226Be, one should not be surprised to learn that they are both eight-ohm speakers with a rated sensitivity of 90 dB,"
Without disagreeing on the speaker design facts, I have to agree that there are many aspects that these Revel and JBL products seem to defy expected price/performance relative to each other. There is one additional aspect that may have affected how they were designed...
The Revel design appears to be more of a component product and the JBL is more of a system one. The HDI-1600 is part of the Synthesis system. It was likely designed to play within a range of products in that ecosystem (amplifiers, processors, and other speakers). The Revel is more of a genreal market product and the same goals would not apply. The pricing seems to reflect this too.
I do not work for Harman, but see parallels to both the computer and automation products I have worked with in the past and present. This more standalone component approach vs. integrated system approach may be at play here too.
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The waveguide is there for directivity, not efficiency.
Revel M105 and M106 are both rated to deliver 20Hz less extension than this speaker. Considering that, just 1dB sensitivity penalty is not too shabby!
EDIT: note that the previous JBL bookshelf horn speaker has if anything slightly lower sensitivity than this one:
It's a waveguide (device to control directivity) not a horn (acoustic amplifier). In either case, the sensitivity is going to have been set by the desired bass extension, i.e. woofer design and cabinet volume.
Sensitivity is one thing I personally have never bothered to measure, because calibrating a portable measurement system to absolute (as opposed to relative) SPL is a big pain. Also in use it has never been shown to me that important, and I've run systems varying from ~83dB/2.83V/1m to ~96dB/2.83V/1m response. As long as it can reach the levels you want with the amp you have, I call it good enough. I typically do pair a speaker with a moderate power amp (Parasound Zamp usually) and a massive amp (ATI AT4007).
One thing often not talked about that sensitivity gives you is extra headroom for EQ, which should lead to a better overall post EQ curve.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #206
As I explained, there is no extra measurement for me to do. Computing a single number requires consensus as to what is useful. Each manufacturer has their own formula, optimized to look good for them. We need to decide what formula is real to use.
I know everybody loves to argue every nuance, but haven't we taken it a bit far when perfectly correct statements are being "corrected?"
I don't think it's wrong to try to clarify terminology to build consensus for definitions on this forum; however, to Jon AA's point this does appear to be a horn with a compression driver.
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What would you call a device that is meant to control directivity and amplify? hornguide? wavehorn?
Sausalitoaudio have a fine guide for spinorama plot, link: https://www.sausalitoaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Interpreting-Spinorama-Charts.pdf
Some folks just can't resist a semantics game.
"Horns" over the years have taken on a negative light do to the constant battering they have received from a large segment of the audiophile community. Many manufacturers have avoided using the term for a long time now no matter the actual design. Waveguide is so much more PC sounding. But,
"Suppose you see a bird walking around in a farm yard. This bird has no label that says 'duck'. But the bird certainly looks like a duck. Also, he goes to the pond and you notice that he swims like a duck. Then he opens his beak and quacks like a duck. Well, by this time you have probably reached the conclusion that the bird is a duck, whether he's wearing a label or not."
JBL sidestep the issue with statement such as this,
"The modern constant-directivity horn has evolved slowly since its introduction over 25 years ago. Advances in horn design have been primary evolutionary in nature. To achieve balanced response of all parameters, JBL Professional started with a clean sheet of paper and developed Progressive Transition (PT) Waveguides."
OP
- Thread Starter
- #214
All my contacts have gone silent unfortunately regarding any speaker test.
All my contacts have gone silent unfortunately regarding any speaker test.
Hi!
Thanks for the reply.
I wonder why they have become silent......i mean they should ride on this wave of objective approach of speakers and electronics.
This is what Floyd and Sean have worked for in decades.
//Mike
OP
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- #216
It is a huge puzzle and major source of disappointment for me personally. BTW, the situation with Dr. Toole is different and has to do with his personal life right now. He is very responsive but doesn't work at Harman anymore. And at any rate, I want to be respectful with respect to his time.
The response trend is closer to the LSR70x than the Revel stuff. Still contestable as to which directivity trend is preferable.
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EQ headroom is usually limited at higher levels by loudspeaker itself in the bass region where most woofers distortions rises quickly, anyway sensitivity imho was a considerable issue in the 60s at tube amps times, but not really in current class AB or class D times where "tons of clean watts" can be purchased for small money and tiny casings.
OK, we'll call it a horn on the towers, but a waveguide on the bookshelves. Makes perfect sense.
Of course, speakers that can handle "tons of clean watts" and still sound good, usually can't be had for "small money."
Though I do agree for this bookshelf, 85 db is fine. It's the smallest speaker in the line, for those who need more output that's what the towers are for.
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