Is transient response the most important thing for the perceived audio quality in a system ?

[levimax]

I think a lot of what people call transiet response is really peak SPL capacity. Any system that can reproduce 20 KHz is "fast" enough for any transient but you also need to be able to have enough SPL headroom to play the music peaks without compression or distortion which depending on the music can be quite demanding.

 

[PatentLawyer]

Surely the response is not the same at either end of the spectrum then?

What response? The frequency response of a compentently designed speaker will be generally uniform. Therefore, the woofer has the time domain performance to reproduce its frequencies, and same goes for the tweeter.

 

[FrankW]

So you have not read that from reviewers from time to time?

Ok you cant cite or quote anything. All bluster. "Reviewers" are authorities? Not in any reality.

 

[FrankW]

Funny, surely you jest
In case not, I can't be of help other than to say try to give close attention to articles/comment on phase audibility, when you encounter them...

Ok, so not authorities.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Ok you cant cite or quote anything. All bluster. "Reviewers" are authorities? Not in any reality.

Taking things too literally, are we?

I have heard reviewers, who is authority by proxy in light of their influence, say that it doesn't matter. Also some that it matters.

I bet you have as well.

 

[FrankW]

I have heard reviewers, who is authority by proxy in light of their influence

That's where we differ.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

That's where we differ.

You really need to expand your sentences a bit.

Where do we differ?

If you think I deem them authorities you are wrong. I can just see them being considered authorities of many because of their reach and voice. Influencers have power if you like it or not.

 

[antcollinet]

Surely the response is not the same at either end of the spectrum then?

When we talk about transient response, the transient is an infinite bandwidth signal. It contains all frequencies. There is no such thing (in terms of transient response) as a transient at 20KHz and a different one at 20Hz.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

When we talk about transient response, the transient is an infinate bandwidth signal. It contains all frequencies. There is no such thing (in terms of transient response) as a transient at 20KHz and a different one at 20Hz.

Yeah it dawned on me and I liked @PatentLawyer s comment when I realized it in a Simpsons "Dooh!" moment. I apologize for my ignorant comment.

 

[gnarly]

When we talk about transient response, the transient is an infinate bandwidth signal. It contains all frequencies. There is no such thing (in terms of transient response) as a transient at 20KHz and a different one at 20Hz.

Yes, no such thing as transient response at a particular frequency.

Personally, i seldom like to see the 'infinite response' card played, with regards to transient response, reproduction of square waves, our FFT measurement programs...etc etc.

Pragmatically, who cares about infinite response other than realizing the limitations finite audio bandwidth imposes on those items?
Imo, transient response with regards to audio, should simply be taken as a given that it applies only to audio bandwidth.

So far, the discussion has mostly been about transient response at a level where the speaker maintains linearity across the frequency spectrum.
About the relationship between freq response and impulse response.

If transient response is meant to as maintaining linear frequency response across the spectrum linearity as SPL is increased, with the linear output needed for headroom....
then I'd say it's 100% that it's an important thing.

Most home gear can't do it, even more powerful gear that supposedly can.
Once you've truly heard it, it goes on the important list..... imho.

IME, when transient response as defined by excellent frequency response (mag and phase),
and transient response as defined by linear output capability,
are both achieved....
opinions change about what's important, rather quickly

 

[FrankW]

Where do we differ?

Ability to quote actual statements made by authorities

If you think I deem them authorities you are wrong.

Well then don't introduce them into discussions without

 

[Mr. Widget]

This is a typical example where the thread creator cannot separate the subjective psychological domain from the objective physical domain. The word transient has a completely different meaning depending on the context.
I suspect that the thread creator is referring to the psychological perception of transient sound which is something completely different than a transient measurable in the physical dimension.
Floyd Toole refers to a tight, solid, and distinct bass as something a loudspeaker should deliver. Old JBL L-100 and L-200 but not L-300 could deliver a transient bass in my experience. This can be simulated with a PEQ and a linear loudspeaker down to 20 Hz. Perceived transient music when played on a pair of JBL L100 can be reproduced on a linear loudspeaker if you copy the frequency curve and add some distortion. The JBL L300 reproduces lower frequencies than the L100 and masks the slightly higher frequencies in the bass. The bass is perceived as less transient when there are lower frequencies.
Less dense music with a prominent initial attack that triggers the precedence effects is perceived as more transient in the higher frequencies.
The perception of a transient sound can be expanded in the physical dimension but is not a physical transient.

Again, it is important to understand that we perceive a transient sound in the psychological dimension and we can measure a transient in the physical dimension. In this context, it's two different entities and should not be mixed.

I think there may be something to this.

Analytically, transient response is described by Fourier and we can easily see a square wave round over as we limit the bandwidth. That said, subjectively there seems to be something else going on that we are responding to when we perceive a speaker or system to have better or worse transient capability.

Is it simple frequency response/distortion as in the vintage JBL examples or is it related to phase response or something else. My guess is that it is related to all of the above. FR, phase, and something else. If it was simple FR Floyd Toole would probably have discovered it in his research and included the curve in his idealized response curve.

Is it phase response? I have played around with active multi-way systems where I carefully time corrected the drivers and used linear phase filters... the sound audibly changed but didn't sound "correct". It didn't sound more dynamic, or appear to have better transient response... it sounded different. True it measured better, and with the sighted bias of knowing it was measuring better it should have sounded better, but in semi-controlled blind tests, it was just different.

Regarding the L100, L200, and L300 example above, I am pretty knowledgeable about vintage JBLs and have spent time with all of those systems. FWIW: I assume @Neuro is referring to the original L200 and not the L200B which shared the LF driver and tuning with the L300. All of these earlier JBLs used a Qtc higher that 0.707 to give them that familiar "rock" sound. Some people equate this with punchy or good transient response in the bass. In my experience just like other speakers it is really driven by the room and room placement. They can sound anywhere from lean (rolled off low frequencies and lacking LF extension) to sounding full and fat (accentuated bass below 150-200Hz and say 50Hz).

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Ability to quote actual statements made by authorities

Well then don't introduce them into discussions without

Nice picking quotes out of context.

 

[fpitas]

Is it phase response? I have played around with active multi-way systems where I carefully time corrected the drivers and used linear phase filters... the sound audibly changed but didn't sound "correct". It didn't sound more dynamic, or appear to have better transient response... it sounded different. True it measured better, and with the sighted bias of knowing it was measuring better it should have sounded better, but in semi-controlled blind tests, it was just different.

A friend and I went back and forth using Re-Phase, from standard LR4 @ 800Hz to phase-flattened, and could barely tell any difference. We had a little more luck phase-flattening at the low frequencies, to eliminate the phase introduced by porting. The bass did sound better, perhaps. Totally flattening the phase at low frequencies sounded bizarre.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

A friend and I went back and forth using Re-Phase, from standard LR4 @ 800Hz to phase-flattened, and could barely tell any difference. We had a little more luck phase-flattening at the low frequencies, to eliminate the phase introduced by porting. The bass did sound better, perhaps. Totally flattening the phase at low frequencies sounded bizarre.

Shouldn't it be better completely flat though? Why do you think it sounded wrong?

 

[fpitas]

Shouldn't it be better completely flat though? Why do you think it sounded wrong?

Not sure. We noted it and moved on. He was happy taking care of half the phase down there, because he's super-picky about bass. He left the phase-flattening on at the crossover too, just because. Thomas, the creator of Re-Phase, wasn't real surprised at our findings.

 

[Mr. Widget]

A friend and I went back and forth using Re-Phase, from standard LR4 @ 800Hz to phase-flattened, and could barely tell any difference. We had a little more luck phase-flattening at the low frequencies, to eliminate the phase introduced by porting. The bass did sound better, perhaps. Totally flattening the phase at low frequencies sounded bizarre.

For the Bluehorn system, Meyer Sound uses their Galaxy processor to phase correct their speakers and it has remarkably flat phase response down to 25-28Hz or so. They sound great. The bass is subjectively all there and "natural", but certainly not accentuated in anyway. Even though on paper there is full frequency response and they are using 18" drivers on the bottom, subjectively the bass doesn't draw attention to itself as it sometimes will with other speakers with large drivers.

FWIW: This system has subjectively excellent transient response.

 

[fpitas]

For the Bluehorn system, Meyer Sound uses their Galaxy processor to phase correct their speakers and it has remarkably flat phase response down to 25-28Hz or so. They sound great. The bass is subjectively all there and "natural", but certainly not accentuated in anyway. Even though on paper there is full frequency response and they are using 18" drivers on the bottom, subjectively the bass doesn't draw attention to itself as it sometimes will with other speakers with large drivers.

FWIW: This system has subjectively excellent transient response.

View attachment 286887

Right, that phase starts rising at low frequencies, too. If we tried to push the flatness real low, the problem began.

 

[Cbdb2]

I use omni microphones thats flat within +-1 dB 20-20000 Hz. But sure, there are many microphones that have horrible freq responses - just as common as bad loudspeakers.

The difference is that these are not "bad" mics. Studio engineers rarely use a measurement mic like you have they prefer non omni non flat designs.

 

[levimax]

I have a DIY 4 way active system (All crossovers are analog active LR4). I use REW and Rephase for speaker / room FR correction and spent a considerable amount of time messing around with "phase". One big issue is it is not easy to get in room phase measurements that you can trust even with gating and all the other tricks. I created a separate filter in Rephase just for "phase" so I could quickly switch it in and out and the difference was subtle to non-existent. I finally settled on using the Rephase built in normalization filters for the crossovers and the speaker box, it gets me a long ways toward "flat" phase and is quick and easy and based on reliable inputs rather than potentially dodgy in room phase measurements. I still can't hear much difference but it sounds good and makes me feel better I am "close enough" to phase coherence.