Is my system effectively transparent?

[DearSX]

I want to understand my system better and know If I'm effectively building a transparent (to human ears) audio system, at least in terms of electronics.

System:

- Wiim Pro Streamer (optical)
- Denafrips Pontus 2 or SMSL-1
- Topping A70 Preamplifier
- Topping PA7 plus amp

Each component has a SINAD better than 100db. My understanding is anything over 95db or so is not audible ie transparent to human hearing.Would this systems performance be transparent then? If not, why?

 

[jae]

Would not bother with anything from Denafrips if you have other options. Some measurements:

Denafrips Pontus 2 (12th Anniversary Edition) Measurements - GoldenSound

Measurements of the Denafrips Pontus 2 12th Anniversary R2R DAC, and testing to see whether claims of NOS capability are true.

goldensound.audio

Denafrips Ares 2 Measurements and Review - GoldenSound

Review and Measurements of the Ares 2. This DAC is not actually a NOS dac, but it's still one of the best options under $1000 and sounds wonderful.

goldensound.audio

Denafrips Terminator Plus (With Gaia) Measurements - GoldenSound

The Terminator plus is a high performing R2R dac and the flagship dac in Denafrips' product range. Now that I have a unit in-house I wanted to get a full set of measurements completed.

goldensound.audio

As you can see Denafrips is not flat out "bad" but their units leave much to be desired in terms of modern measurement performance and little "bugs"/inconsistencies with their units. I would not get an R2R dac in 2023, most of it is advertising gimmick. Any modern Chinese dac at a fraction of the price will get you 116-120 dB SINAD easily and probably better all-around performance. I don't even think most of the Denafrips products come with a remote control. The main thing going for them is that they have a nice looking chassis.

If you don't need the preamp for other additional analogue inputs I would personally get one of the topping headphone amp/dac all in ones to replace two devices with one. If you don't care about additional analogue inputs and also don't use headphones then something like https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/inte...th-2x250w-4-ohm-32bit-768khz-dsd-p-17004.html is a nice all-in-one product (wireless linkplay streamer virtually identical to Wiim, Ncore amplifier which is similar spec to the Topping, transparent dac)

But to answer your question, yes, everything else is essentially "transparent".

 

[DearSX]

I will look through you post and read that data, and let you know what I think thanks.

 

[julian_hughes]

I want to better if I'm effectively building a transparent (to human ears) audio system, at least in terms of electronics.

System:

- Wiim Pro Streamer (optical)
- Denafrips Pontus 2 or SMSL-1
- Topping A70 Preamplifier
- Topping PA7 plus amp

Each component has a SINAD better than 100db. My understanding is anything over 95db or so is not audible ie transparent to human hearing.Would this systems performance be transparent then? If not, why?

That's a lot of electronics but no mention of the bit that makes the sound - loudspeakers or headphones or IEMs! Or the environment in which they are used. How can anyone possibly offer an opinion on how your system sounds? And anyway, why even care about the opinion of people you don't know and who will never hear it?

 

[DearSX]

That's a lot of electronics but no mention of the bit that makes the sound - loudspeakers or headphones or IEMs! Or the environment in which they are used. How can anyone possibly offer an opinion on how your system sounds? And anyway, why even care about the opinion of people you don't know and who will never hear it?

Thanks for the reply, I am focusing more on the electronics end of things and making them add as little to the music and speakers as possible besides just passing on the digital content (digital streaming service like Qobuz or Tidal). I plan to change the voicing of things down the line with the speakers, I currently have the Wharfedale Lintons, Q Acoustics Concept 50, and DIY SB Acoustics Satori 3 way speakers, as well as a couple of others.

 

[Chrispy]

Thanks for the reply, I am focusing more on the electronics end of things and making them add as little to the music and speakers as possible besides just passing on the digital content (digital streaming service like Qobuz or Tidal). I plan to change the voicing of things down the line with the speakers, I currently have the Wharfedale Lintons, Q Acoustics Concept 50, and DIY SB Acoustics Satori 3 way speakers, as well as a couple of others.

I'd still focus on better speakers rather than electronics....

 

[DearSX]

Would not bother with anything from Denafrips if you have other options. Some measurements:

Denafrips Pontus 2 (12th Anniversary Edition) Measurements - GoldenSound

Measurements of the Denafrips Pontus 2 12th Anniversary R2R DAC, and testing to see whether claims of NOS capability are true.

goldensound.audio

Denafrips Ares 2 Measurements and Review - GoldenSound

Review and Measurements of the Ares 2. This DAC is not actually a NOS dac, but it's still one of the best options under $1000 and sounds wonderful.

goldensound.audio

Denafrips Terminator Plus (With Gaia) Measurements - GoldenSound

The Terminator plus is a high performing R2R dac and the flagship dac in Denafrips' product range. Now that I have a unit in-house I wanted to get a full set of measurements completed.

goldensound.audio

As you can see Denafrips is not flat out "bad" but their units leave much to be desired in terms of modern measurement performance and little "bugs"/inconsistencies with their units. I would not get an R2R dac in 2023, most of it is advertising gimmick. Any modern Chinese dac at a fraction of the price will get you 116-120 dB SINAD easily and probably better all-around performance. I don't even think most of the Denafrips products come with a remote control. The main thing going for them is that they have a nice looking chassis.

If you don't need the preamp for other additional analogue inputs I would personally get one of the topping headphone amp/dac all in ones to replace two devices with one. If you don't care about additional analogue inputs and also don't use headphones then something like https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/inte...th-2x250w-4-ohm-32bit-768khz-dsd-p-17004.html is a nice all-in-one product (wireless linkplay streamer virtually identical to Wiim, Ncore amplifier which is similar spec to the Topping, transparent dac)

But to answer your question, yes, everything else is essentially "transparent".

I am going to be testing some none R2R DACs soon. Truth be told I don't think I could tell the difference between my old $300 Music Fidelity DAC and the Denafrips.

I ended up buying some Hifiman head phones so I figure the Topping A70 was a good all in one solution, but I will explore the device you shared.

"But to answer your question, yes, everything else is essentially "transparent".".................... Thanks

 

[DearSX]

I'd still focus on better speakers rather than electronics....

Yeah I think you have a good point. Part of reason I am asking this is I think if I can save money on the electronics, sell some of what I have and get "transparent' sound. Then I can have more money for the speakers and upgrade them. At this point I'm a cheap DAC away from having a "transparent" system, and I've already started looking at upgrading speakers., but I want some help from the forum

 

[Chrispy]

Yeah I think you have a good point. Part of reason I am asking this is I think if I can save money on the electronics, sell some of what I have and get "transparent' sound. Then I can have more money for the speakers and upgrade them. At this point I'm a cheap DAC away from having a "transparent" system, and I've already started looking at upgrading speakers., but I want some help from the forum

The speakers will be far less transparent than the type of electronics shifts you're talking about. The room comes into play more, too.

 

[Keith_W]

You are missing an important tool which can make your system sound more transparent - a microphone, and some DSP. All those electronics are good enough. Even if you didn't buy top measuring electronics, it is more than likely still going to be good enough. The big elephant in the room is the performance of your speakers and how they will interact with your room, with all sorts of potential to muddy up the sound. The only way to cure that is with DSP. And maybe some room treatment or furniture (but that is kind of a controversial topic on ASR at the moment!).

 

[Travis]

That's a lot of electronics but no mention of the bit that makes the sound - loudspeakers or headphones or IEMs! Or the environment in which they are used. How can anyone possibly offer an opinion on how your system sounds? And anyway, why even care about the opinion of people you don't know and who will never hear it?

Think he was specific with regard to the front end only. But now I’m curious. If that equipment is “transparent” (no added color), isn’t it transparent for all rooms and all speakers?

Not saying his room won’t add color, or his speakers will, but all things being equal, it that equipment is transparent, collectively, do the speakers or room matter in terms of what he is asking - it it transparent.

OR, is the answer, you can’t tell if equipment is transparent unless we know what it is hooked up to, or what room it’s in.

My understanding was, from the thousands of posts in this Forum was you can’t tell one DAC from another, one AMP from another, one receiver from another if it met certain minimum criteria. That won’t change with different speakers, won’t change with different rooms. You just repeat the controlled blind test with different speaker/room and you still won’t be able to tell the difference.

 

[DearSX]

The speakers will be far less transparent than the type of electronics shifts you're talking about. The room comes into play more, too.

Yeah, I've been thinking about it more, makes sense. I think the speakers response and in my room are the biggest issues.

 

[DearSX]

You are missing an important tool which can make your system sound more transparent - a microphone, and some DSP. All those electronics are good enough. Even if you didn't buy top measuring electronics, it is more than likely still going to be good enough. The big elephant in the room is the performance of your speakers and how they will interact with your room, with all sorts of potential to muddy up the sound. The only way to cure that is with DSP. And maybe some room treatment or furniture (but that is kind of a controversial topic on ASR at the moment!).

Agree, I have poor measuring audio equipment in my car (Stereo and speakers), but with a good deal of content it can sound really good. I use my external EQ and Crossovers on the deck to clean some things up and tune things a bit, but some songs just work. Michael Jackson and some other 80s music sound pretty good in my car.

 

[Travis]

I want to understand my system better and know If I'm effectively building a transparent (to human ears) audio system, at least in terms of electronics.

System:

- Wiim Pro Streamer (optical)
- Denafrips Pontus 2 or SMSL-1
- Topping A70 Preamplifier
- Topping PA7 plus amp

Each component has a SINAD better than 100db. My understanding is anything over 95db or so is not audible ie transparent to human hearing.Would this systems performance be transparent then? If not, why?

I think you have picked a very logical path given you have several sets of speakers already. You are trying to control for what you can before you get to speakers/room.

IOW, Does anything in my signal chain add color or distortion that’s audible. Or, based on the measurements, will I, or anyone else for that matter, be unable to tell the difference between this AMP, DAC, PRE, and any other equipment that measures as well. Or is there something besides SINAD I should be looking at as far as transparent sound?

Once you know that your gear is transparent then you plan to work on the speakers, etc. and you will go that what you are hearing isn’t due to a deficient amp, DAC, etc. You will have controlled for the equipment, and you can focus on differences between speakers. That’s what I understood what your intended workflow.

EDIT: what if Amir, or other tester comes in and says, oh no, that X you have had a noticeable bump in FR that was clearly audible. The SINAD was great, but had major flaws.

You would be chasing your tail if you tried to compare speakers you have.

I think your intuition is spot on. It’s an any ask. Anyone aware of something besides these great measurements? You get the all clear and go to step 2

But if you want to work backwards, start comparing speakers, blind, AB, or EQ, etc. it’s up to you.

 

[DearSX]

Think he was specific with regard to the front end only. But now I’m curious. If that equipment is “transparent” (no added color), isn’t it transparent for all rooms and all speakers?

Not saying his room won’t add color, or his speakers will, but all things being equal, it that equipment is transparent, collectively, do the speakers or room matter in terms of what he is asking - it it transparent.

OR, is the answer, you can’t tell if equipment is transparent unless we know what it is hooked up to, or what room it’s in.

My understanding was, from the thousands of posts in this Forum was you can’t tell one DAC from another, one AMP from another, one receiver from another if it met certain minimum criteria. That won’t change with different speakers, won’t change with different rooms. You just repeat the controlled blind test with different speaker/room and you still won’t be able to tell the difference.

Exactly!

 

[DearSX]

I think you have picked a very logical path given you have several sets of speakers already. You are trying to control for what you can before you get to speakers/room.

IOW, Does anything in my signal chain add color or distortion that’s audible. Or, based on the measurements, will I, or anyone else for that matter, be unable to tell the difference between this AMP, DAC, PRE, and any other equipment that measures as well. Or is there something besides SINAD I should be looking at as far as transparent sound?

Once you know that your gear is transparent then you plan to work on the speakers, etc. and you will go that what you are hearing isn’t due to a deficient amp, DAC, etc. You will have controlled for the equipment, and you can focus on differences between speakers. That’s what I understood what your intended workflow.

Exactly (also)!

 

[DearSX]

Would not bother with anything from Denafrips if you have other options. Some measurements:

Denafrips Pontus 2 (12th Anniversary Edition) Measurements - GoldenSound

Measurements of the Denafrips Pontus 2 12th Anniversary R2R DAC, and testing to see whether claims of NOS capability are true.

goldensound.audio

Denafrips Ares 2 Measurements and Review - GoldenSound

Review and Measurements of the Ares 2. This DAC is not actually a NOS dac, but it's still one of the best options under $1000 and sounds wonderful.

goldensound.audio

Denafrips Terminator Plus (With Gaia) Measurements - GoldenSound

The Terminator plus is a high performing R2R dac and the flagship dac in Denafrips' product range. Now that I have a unit in-house I wanted to get a full set of measurements completed.

goldensound.audio

As you can see Denafrips is not flat out "bad" but their units leave much to be desired in terms of modern measurement performance and little "bugs"/inconsistencies with their units. I would not get an R2R dac in 2023, most of it is advertising gimmick. Any modern Chinese dac at a fraction of the price will get you 116-120 dB SINAD easily and probably better all-around performance. I don't even think most of the Denafrips products come with a remote control. The main thing going for them is that they have a nice looking chassis.

If you don't need the preamp for other additional analogue inputs I would personally get one of the topping headphone amp/dac all in ones to replace two devices with one. If you don't care about additional analogue inputs and also don't use headphones then something like https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/inte...th-2x250w-4-ohm-32bit-768khz-dsd-p-17004.html is a nice all-in-one product (wireless linkplay streamer virtually identical to Wiim, Ncore amplifier which is similar spec to the Topping, transparent dac)

But to answer your question, yes, everything else is essentially "transparent".

What's interesting about this is that the person measuring really likes the Denafrips DACs, even though they measure some 30db more noise than the best DACs.

 

[Multicore]

Yes, it is.

 

[NiagaraPete]

I’m wondering what sources you have that needs the Topping pre amp?

 

[muslhead]

What's interesting about this is that the person measuring really likes the Denafrips DACs, even though they measure some 30db more noise than the best DACs.

not everyone is the same and likes noiseless transparency. Unless you know the reviewers taste and can be correlated to your own, what good are subjective portions of any review?