Is Digital Audio Transmission Analog? [video]

[manisandher]

Further thorough examination and DBT-testing would be required but that is not likely to ever happen for obvious reasons.

Ahem...

I did exactly this around 5 years ago (with the help of @mansr). 3 blind tests (essentially DBT, because Mans was controlling the test using a random generator on his phone, and sitting in a different room to me - I could neither see nor hear him) - the first two non-ABX, and the last ABX. Here are the results:



I won't go into more detail because the test has been thrashed to death in other threads, both here on ASR and on AS, with Mans critical of the method, apparatus, and pretty much everything to do with it. He believes the ABX result (3rd test) was a fluke. For my part, I know I heard differences in sound. And what was changed between A and B? Simply buffer settings in the software player. A and B were shown to remain bit-identical throughout the test (we captured the digital input into the DAC).

Bear in mind that:
- I had never been involved in a blind test before, and took some time to get used to it
- we were using spdif into a pretty old DAC, which may well have had an analogue output stage susceptible to noise

I have a few decent modern DACs here now, and might try the test again... one day... if I have the inclination to do so.

Mani.

 

[pma]

I just tried to test how robust is the S/PDIF coaxial transmission (train of impulses) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/PDIF
The signal source was Marantz SA7001 CD player, digital coaxial output fed to DacMagicPlus and its analog output digitized by E1DA Cosmos ADC. The S/PDIF coax line was used "normally" and then capacitive loaded. Up to 2.2 nF parallel capacitance, there was no difference in measured signals. When capacitor was enlarged to 4.4 nF, S/PDIF transmission stopped working because of signal amplitude decay due to too long rising and falling edges of impulses. So the S/PDIF has been quite robust and normal cables with capacitance <2 nF should work. But better to use something like usual 50 - 100pF.

1kHz sine, same shape with and without 2.2 nF capacitor

Dunn jitter test, no capacitor added

Dunn jitter test, 2.2 nF added

 

[Thomas savage]

I am with you but if you listen to the podcast, he makes it sound like he is a layman hungry for technical explanation. This is/was quite contrary to the content of his videos. I took him on his word when I made my offer, only to realize that the demonstrated openness in his podcast doesn't really exist.

A cunning strategy, he's making money, he exploits a individuals egotism and tries to pull in as many as possible by seeming ' reasonable ' . Jesus we've all seen this here over the years from the fly by members with a motive .

He likely can't afford the virtues the ' king of audio ' enjoys because he's not earnt them .

Personality and identity politics abound . Least we forget the darkside is often , easier , more seductive and embraces fear and ignorance.

Oh well , the YouTube videos show you at your best imo. It's a shame they can't get eyes on like the forum . Maybe Instagram! The more people see your humanity and indeed you , the better for what your trying to do imo .

Its kinda dirty tactics but no-one can match your integrity if they were aware of your life story . You've certainly inspired me to do more for folks that mean something to me .

 

[DonR]

I just tried to test how robust is the S/PDIF coaxial transmission (train of impulses) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/PDIF
The signal source was Marantz SA7001 CD player, digital coaxial output fed to DacMagicPlus and its analog output digitized by E1DA Cosmos ADC. The S/PDIF coax line was used "normally" and then capacitive loaded. Up to 2.2 nF parallel capacitance, there was no difference in measured signals. When capacitor was enlarged to 4.4 nF, S/PDIF transmission stopped working because of signal amplitude decay due to too long rising and falling edges of impulses. So the S/PDIF has been quite robust and normal cables with capacitance <2 nF should work. But better to use something like usual 50 - 100pF.

1kHz sine, same shape with and without 2.2 nF capacitor

View attachment 223624


Dunn jitter test, no capacitor added

View attachment 223625


Dunn jitter test, 2.2 nF added

View attachment 223626

Nice work. Most generic audio RCA cables of about 2m in length have capacitance around 300pf from memory. Video cables are around 50-100pf. I think the RG59 standard is 60pf/m.

 

[amirm]

Letters to the editor – Weeks #28 – 30, 2022 | Darko.Audio

Amir M. writes... re. Happy to be on your show Hi Darko. This is Amir Majidimehr from Audio Science Review. I just finished listening to the interview you had with Karman on importance of measurements. I actually found your questions and attitude overall quite friendly and flexible which I...

darko.audio

I find Darko's response combative and dismissive of Amir's solid points about Goldfinger... in fact quite rude towards the end of the reponse. So if anyone thinks Amir is ganging up on Darko... think again, as contact was made and an opportunity given before this video was posted here.


JSmith

Didn't realize he had post our communication. I can't open the above link though. Are you still able to do so?

 

[diddley]

it's forbidden

 

[MCH]

Didn't realize he had post our communication. I can't open the above link though. Are you still able to do so?

Yes:

Letters to the editor – Weeks #28 – 30, 2022 | Darko.Audio

Amir M. writes... re. Happy to be on your show Hi Darko. This is Amir Majidimehr from Audio Science Review. I just finished listening to the interview you had with Karman on importance of measurements. I actually found your questions and attitude overall quite friendly and flexible which I...

darko.audio

Edit: curious, not if i click from here but yes if i google it or i paste the link in chrome

 

[tomchris]

Didn't realize he had post our communication. I can't open the above link though. Are you still able to do so?

Direct link doesn't work every time. However, if you do an "amir" search on his site then the article/link comes up working.

 

[fpitas]

For the record, digital waveforms do not have to be, and usually aren't, very square. Go above a few hundred MHz bit rate and they start looking really sinusoidal. Engineers have ways to accurately digitize them, regardless.

 

[pma]

Didn't realize he had post our communication. I can't open the above link though. Are you still able to do so?

https://darko.audio/2022/07/letters-to-the-editor-weeks-28-29-2022/

 

[amirm]

Yes:

Letters to the editor – Weeks #28 – 30, 2022 | Darko.Audio

Amir M. writes... re. Happy to be on your show Hi Darko. This is Amir Majidimehr from Audio Science Review. I just finished listening to the interview you had with Karman on importance of measurements. I actually found your questions and attitude overall quite friendly and flexible which I...

darko.audio

Edit: curious, not if i click from here but yes if i google it or i paste the link in chrome

Thanks. I found it that way.

 

[voodooless]

Yes:

Letters to the editor – Weeks #28 – 30, 2022 | Darko.Audio

Amir M. writes... re. Happy to be on your show Hi Darko. This is Amir Majidimehr from Audio Science Review. I just finished listening to the interview you had with Karman on importance of measurements. I actually found your questions and attitude overall quite friendly and flexible which I...

darko.audio

Edit: curious, not if i click from here but yes if i google it or i paste the link in chrome

Doesn’t work for me, but archive to the rescue:

Letters to the editor – Weeks #28 – 30, 2022 | Darko.Audio

Amir M. writes... re. Happy to be on your show Hi Darko. This is Amir Majidimehr from Audio Science Review. I just finished listening to the interview you had with Karman on importance of measurements. I actually found your questions and attitude overall quite friendly and flexible which I...

web.archive.org

 

[JSmith]

Didn't realize he had post our communication.

I was wondering if there was a response to this video... then stumbled across that and thought, this is very poor form by Darko. To post a private message or email exchange is a shocker.

I can't open the above link though. Are you still able to do so?

I can't either now... maybe he has blocked re-directs from ASR?

Test;

Letters to the editor | Darko.Audio

darko.audio

edit: yep, 403 still.

curious, not if i click from here but yes if i google it or i paste the link in chrome

Yep that works, which leads me to think the above.


JSmith

 

[Vacceo]

As Nelson Pass used to say, "this is an entertainment business". Do not expect any "scientific exactness", on any popular audio forum or commercial forum, or in any commercial audio magazine.

I think there is a difference between watching a Marvel film knowing that it is fiction and buying an expensive set of Wilson speaker thinking it is hi fi.

 

[fpitas]

I think there is a difference between watching a Marvel film knowing that it is fiction and buying an expensive set of Wilson speaker thinking it is hi fi.

A lot of audiophiles very obviously enjoy the hocus-pocus. And, as long as it's not my money, they are free to buy whatever shakti stones they like. We do have an unusually orderly outlook here. It's not for everybody.

Oh and. Mr. Pass gets quite vehement about his supplied Belden power cord

 

[voodooless]

I can't either now... maybe he has blocked re-directs from ASR?

Test;

Letters to the editor | Darko.Audio

darko.audio

edit: yep, 403 still.

That’s it indeed… what an absolutely idiotic thing to do! If anyone still things this dude is genuine and sincere, well… think again

 

[Koeitje]

Recently listened to Darko‘s podcast episode with golden sound. If you want to understand darko‘s opinion on measurements, I recommend listening to it.
I generally don’t recommend trying to argue with tryhard subjectivists because it’s mostly just a waste of time.
But Darko is a bit more open towards different opinions as the podcast has shown IMHO

I don't think he is open to opinions if he keeps telling the bullshit video after video on his Youtube channel. All he cares about is the views on sponsorships, which is not surprising since its his livelihood.

Edit: the re-direct issue confirms what I said. ASR threatens his bottom line so he will do everything to prevent that. Just shows what kind of person he is.

 

[Midwest Blade]

Well…used to watch a few of Darko’s videos which were generally well produced, took his recommendations and reviews with a big grain of salt but found some of his discussions interesting. Know fully that he was on the dark side of review and recommend and firmly in the subjectivist camp, thought he might be more of a bridge commentator in the audio world. Oh well, more time to watch other mind numbing vid’s on YouTube.

 

[Timcognito]

Doesn’t work for me, but archive to the rescue:

Also just cut and paste URL in a new tab

 

[voodooless]

Also just cut and paste URL in a new tab

Yeah, that works as well. At least my link will probably work for a longer time