Is Bigger always better?

[Some Luck]

First post here, but I have been an admirer of the forum for a while, and have been scouring it for it's reviews on Genelecs and Neumanns! I'm a music a producer/mixer (RNB/Bass heavy music) and I'm looking for a new pair of monitors. I have a very small room (2.28mX3mX3m), that is moderatley treated - I followed the Acoustic Insider method, and currently have 6 6inch pannels, and will be adding more soon. My listening position is 1m. My goal is to get a speaker that goes as low as possible (I frequently am working with basses in the 29-40 HZ range), but still fit into my current rooms listening position, and something that would allow me to work in a bigger room if I decide to move in the future.... I know, I know.... Unicorns don't exsit but please bare with me.

My main questions are this:
1. Given that I know I'm eventually going to be moving to a bigger room, does buying something like the KH 150, which will barely fit in my current room, make sense? Does a couple inches in listening position make a difference?
1.b and how do KH 150 react in smaller rooms compared to a simiarily sized monitor like the 8340s? I've heard mentioned here that coaxial designs, are better in very close range listening posiitons. I cant really afford the Genelec Ones right now, so they are out of the question, but does a IN8v2 (they are massive, but they can go on they're sides and maybe more flexible because of it) make more sense since it is coaxial?

2. How do KH 150s stack up to the rest of the competition? Ok, I know there's been a lot of discussion on how they compare to the 8340's, but what about Adams new A8H or the Dynaduio LYD 48?

3. Are the advancments made in the new KH 150 make it a superior speaker to the KH80 with paired with KH750? Obviously the KH80 combo will have lower range, but if I did get the 150's id probably by the KH70's in the future, so theoretically they would have a simialr range. Outside of the obvious benefit in SPL of the 150's what else would I be gaining in a scenario like that? I know the tweeters are the same, is the DSP different?


My current contenders are:

KH 150's (4550.00 CAD)

Genelec 8340's (4089.00 CAD)

Adam A8H (4200.00 CAD)

Dynaudio LYD 48 (3300.00 CAD)

KH 80s with KH750 (3800.00 CAD)

Kali IN8 V2s (1200.00 CAD)


Unfortunately where I live I cannot test any of the above models outside of the KH80's (but not paired with the sub). I do, however, have access to the KH120's, the KH310s, the Genelec 8040's, and 8331's, barefoot footprint 02's, and the Focal Solos. Obviously not ideal, but I'm hopingt I could get a feel for the KH 150 sound by trying both the KH120's and 310's, and similarily with the Genelecs.

I'm also open to any other suggestions by any of the lovely folks here!

Erik

 

[RobL]

You’re in Canada? Pm me, I might know where you can shave some $$ off some of those prices…

 

[fineMen]

I'm also open to any other suggestions by any of the lovely folks here!

As a producer you might consider to equalize a consumer grade speaker to your needs in that unusually small room. The expenses were not too high at the moment, reselling them later would be a more viable option.

I don't see the point in following the 'average room' approach of the CEA2034 standard with such a small studio. Obviously all those models on your shortlist follow that proposal, being optimized for larger venues for good or other reasons. You asked for it ...

 

[DVDdoug]

Is bigger always better?

YES! Actually there's a lot more to bass than woofer & cabinet size.

I don't know about those particular speakers but at some point physics does come into play and it's hard to get "realistic" bass you can feel in your body with a small woofer.

Does a couple inches in listening position make a difference?

Not with the bass. A 100Hz sound wave has a wavelength of 11 feet, and a 20Hz is 5 times as long. "Things" happen at 1/2 & 1/4 wavelength too but we're still not talking about inches.

I followed the Acoustic Insider method, and currently have 6 6inch pannels, and will be adding more soon

Acoustic panels? Regular acoustic panes don't have much effect on the bass. For that you need bass traps. Bass traps trap the otherwise reflected bass which smooths-out the dips and the bumps. Bumps in frequency response can be (mostly) fixed with EQ but where the standing waves cause cancelation and a dip, it can take "infinite" power and large woofers to overcome the cancelation and this is where bass traps can help.

Diagnosis before treatment! REW is popular FREE room/speaker measurement software and then you just need a calibrated measurement mic (about $100) ...and some time.

My goal is to get a speaker that goes as low as possible (I frequently am working with basses in the 29-40 HZ range)

Yes... As a "producer" you should have accurate monitors (and a measured & treated room) so you can hear accurately what your production sounds like.

But be careful with "deep bass". Don't over-do it! Most listeners don't have systems that can reproduce deep bass. Most "pro" subwoofers used for live music and in clubs only go down to about 40Hz. The playback system can distort from bass it can't reproduce. Any "real music" from a bass guitar (which goes down to about 40Hz) or from a kick drum should be OK if it's not "over processed", but be careful with electronically generated sounds.

 

[Some Luck]

@fineMen Thanks for the reply! Would you be able to clairfy as to why a a consumer grade speaker would be better? Is it just that it's a wasted investment to buy one of the options on my list?

 

[Some Luck]

Acoustic panels? Regular acoustic panes don't have much effect on the bass. For that you need bass traps. Bass traps trap the otherwise reflected bass which smooths-out the dips and the bumps. Bumps in frequency response can be (mostly) fixed with EQ but where the standing waves cause cancelation and a dip, it can take "infinite" power and large woofers to overcome the cancelation and this is where bass traps can help.

My pannels are larger than the avergae ones. Maybe not basstrap, but they definitely are impacting that range. They're all 6inch deep, and 6 inches from the wall, so in effect 12inch pannels. I do want to add more bass traps though. Ive been following the model by this guy https://www.youtube.com/@AcousticsInsider. His simplified priniciple is that in smaller rooms, your never going to be able to actually impact the low low end, because you just dont have the space for pannels that thick. So, he advices to place as many, and as thick of pannels around the room as possible. 6 inch being the sweetspot for frequenecy absorption in a small room - pannels for high freqeuncies dont make sense due to the lack of space

Diagnosis before treatment! REW is popular FREE room/speaker measurement software and then you just need a calibrated measurement mic (about $100) ...and some time.

Thats a good idea! I haven't tried REW but again I've been following Acoustic Insiders advice, and used his spesker placement tests to find my listening position. It's made a massive diffrence! Here's a link to it if anyone is interested:

Smart Acoustic Treatment: Get The Most Out Of Your Room And Speakers

Smart Acoustic Treatment: How To Get The Most Out Of Your New Room And Speakers

www.acousticsinsider.com

One of the reasons im interested in the KH150s, and genelecs is for the room correction though, and REW would be a good introduction!

But be careful with "deep bass". Don't over-do it! Most listeners don't have systems that can reproduce deep bass. Most "pro" subwoofers used for live music and in clubs only go down to about 40Hz. The playback system can distort from bass it can't reproduce. Any "real music" from a bass guitar (which goes down to about 40Hz) or from a kick drum should be OK if it's not "over processed", but be careful with electronically generated sounds.

Always good advice

 

[fineMen]

@fineMen Thanks for the reply! Would you be able to clairfy as to why a a consumer grade speaker would be better? Is it just that it's a wasted investment to buy one of the options on my list?

Not exactly. I only wonder how a decision for a model today would translate to an already planned different surrounding of still undefined properties. I personally would keep the investment low, and would look after a good resell value. Objective: min the anticipated loss in absolute terms.

Regarding the desirability of top tier brands I argue that with such a small room as is given today the benefit would be smaller than one might expect from an evaluation along the CAE2034 standard. Your room is decidedly non-standard, and so the said standard wont fully apply.

Combine both observations and the recommended solution comes into sight. At least in my book.

 

[Some Luck]

Not exactly. I only wonder how a decision for a model today would translate to an already planned different surrounding of still undefined properties. I personally would keep the investment low, and would look after a good resell value. Objective: min the anticipated loss in absolute terms.

Regarding the desirability of top tier brands I argue that with such a small room as is given today the benefit would be smaller than one might expect from an evaluation along the CAE2034 standard. Your room is decidedly non-standard, and so the said standard wont fully apply.

Combine both observations and the recommended solution comes into sight. At least in my book.

You are probably right. I was really hoping that I could make something work, and then grow into it...

Excuse my ignorance on this, but what is CAE2034 standard? I tried googling it but couldnt find anything useful?

 

[fineMen]

You are probably right. I was really hoping that I could make something work, and then grow into it...

Excuse my ignorance on this, but what is CAE2034 standard? I tried googling it but couldnt find anything useful?

Sorry, I'm bad at this:

 

[5onderling]

I'm not a professional and only recently got, with the 8340's, my first pair of active studio monitors.

My room is not treated, but it is not much larger than your's and my speakers go down to 30.5 and 29.5 hz at -6 db. I would guess the neumanns probably perform about the same, maybe a bit better. In a larger room they would likely do not go that deep, so I don't know if that is enough for you.

 

[fineMen]

... my speakers go down to 30.5 and 29.5 hz at -6 db. I would guess the neumanns probably perform about the same, ...

The bass extension shouldn't be a problem, except for often overlooked, quite technical design decisions.

If it was only the roll off below a certain frequency, what about simple, yet deadly effective equalization? A pro without an equalizer?

One caveat, though. If the design is a ported one, as opposed to a sealed enclosure, then the tuning frequency limits the possibilities with the equalization. It doesn't make much sense to e/q the speaker below that frequency.

Only as an anecdote; I recently realized a sealed box (9 liters net) with a quite small (by my standards) bass driver. It got e/q to 30Hz -3dB, while the so called room gain was taken into account (11x4x7m^3). The bass output left nothing to be desired, neither in regard to extension nor regarding output capabilities. Trick was to leave the mids to a dedicated driver, making it a three-way.

Btw, how do you deal with the early reflection from the mixing console?

 

[5onderling]

I don't really get/understand what you wrote there @fineMen, but I have equalized the speakers using the genelec sam autocal function. That "removed" my gigantic room mode of +18 db at 50 hz which is a huge improvement, of course. It probably did a few more things but I don't have them all memorized.

I don't use them professionally, just on stands besides my tv, so no table/mixing console in front of them.

 

[Some Luck]

Sorry, I'm bad at this:


View attachment 264929

Not bad, very much appreciated! I cant see all of that image, but im guessing that the CEA2034 is what manufacturers use, to test/design the speakers? I releazie that my room is far from perfect, but i though that with these new dsp models, companies were trying adress these very problems. Like i thought the One's were sort of designed for very inclose listening, which I would only assumed would be the case if you have a small room?

 

[Some Luck]

I'm not a professional and only recently got, with the 8340's, my first pair of active studio monitors.

My room is not treated, but it is not much larger than your's and my speakers go down to 30.5 and 29.5 hz at -6 db. I would guess the neumanns probably perform about the same, maybe a bit better. In a larger room they would likely do not go that deep, so I don't know if that is enough for you.

Hey thanks for the feedback! If you dont mind me asking, whats your room size? That is gigantic!!! How do you find your mixes translate?

 

[Some Luck]

The bass extension shouldn't be a problem, except for often overlooked, quite technical design decisions.

If it was only the roll off below a certain frequency, what about simple, yet deadly effective equalization? A pro without an equalizer?

One caveat, though. If the design is a ported one, as opposed to a sealed enclosure, then the tuning frequency limits the possibilities with the equalization. It doesn't make much sense to e/q the speaker below that frequency.

Only as an anecdote; I recently realized a sealed box (9 liters net) with a quite small (by my standards) bass driver. It got e/q to 30Hz -3dB, while the so called room gain was taken into account (11x4x7m^3). The bass output left nothing to be desired, neither in regard to extension nor regarding output capabilities. Trick was to leave the mids to a dedicated driver, making it a three-way.

Btw, how do you deal with the early reflection from the mixing console?

Interesting note re ported designs, and equalization. I guess that would be problem for the KH 150's then?

I should add that the reason I am in this search is that my Focal Cms 50s have broken after 12 years of use. I could probably have them fixed, but I would love to upgrade them, as I feel like I would benefit from better monitors. So, I do plan on using equilization to improve my room, but I feel like that is something ill after I get a pair of monitors.

 

[dasdoing]

the problem with woofers below 8" is that at high levels they will distort in the bass even when you cross them with subwoofer. if you really want to use them in a big room later I wouldn't go with a small woofer. unless you never cranc them up.

 

[Some Luck]

the problem with woofers below 8" is that at high levels they will distort in the bass even when you cross them with subwoofer. if you really want to use them in a big room later I wouldn't go with a small woofer. unless you never cranc them up.

Good point @dasdoing. While, I've never been one to blast music, one of the reasons I was leaning towards the KH 150's was they're low distortion levels. Having said that i've only had a really big room to work in a couple of times, and so i dont really have that much experince with how much louder ill want to go. Do you think it would be a problem with KH 150 if they are paired with 2 KH750s?

 

[thewas]

Only as an anecdote; I recently realized a sealed box (9 liters net) with a quite small (by my standards) bass driver. It got e/q to 30Hz -3dB, while the so called room gain was taken into account (11x4x7m^3). The bass output left nothing to be desired, neither in regard to extension nor regarding output capabilities. Trick was to leave the mids to a dedicated driver, making it a three-way.

Which woofer and crossover frequency did you use?

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Good point @dasdoing. While, I've never been one to blast music, one of the reasons I was leaning towards the KH 150's was they're low distortion levels. Having said that i've only had a really big room to work in a couple of times, and so i dont really have that much experince with how much louder ill want to go. Do you think it would be a problem with KH 150 if they are paired with 2 KH750s?

I think that will work fine. In another thread the gentlemen from Neumann even explained how to set it up as a stereo pair.

 

[fineMen]

I don't really get/understand what you wrote there @fineMen, but I have equalized the speakers using the genelec sam autocal function.
...
I don't use them professionally, just on stands besides my tv, so no table/mixing console in front of them.

After chatGBT, how could one argue against the artificial intelligence of that autocal function? Anyway, when using the Genelec 8340 as a TV speaker I wouldn't be that critical either.