Integrated for LS50 Meta;

[steve59]

I don't have a specific brand favorite. When I had the salon1 the hegel was an audible upgrade to a parasound, but when I put the paradigm persona 7f in my system the combination sounded dry and clinical and a pathos logos mk2 woke that system up. I agree if you don't hear a difference don't waste the money. I encourage everyone to listen to as many components as they can and then decide.

Calling someone a fan boy for having a different experience than you speaks more about them than the person the slight is aimed at. I'm in it for fun.

 

[Bogda]

I am one satisfied owner of ls50 Metas + Hegel H95 integrated amplifier which got maybe the worst review ever at ASR. It obviouslu is not state of the art amplifier but was shown here in much worse light than it really is because of inappropriate interpretation of measurings results, and some strange results that were only noticed here.
It replaced all my external DACs, streamers, kables, true one box solution and my wife is very happy because of it.
For music I am usually streaming Tidal from iPod via AirPlay and it works very well. For TV/video is connected through toslink and it also works like a charm.
This amp works very well with LS50 Metas if you are listening at low to medium levels. If you are listening at high volumes, you should choose other speakers, because no amplifier will make ls50s play loud without distortion in normal configuration.
There are some concerns about low level on Line out but SVS 3000 Micro sub connected through Line out works fine.

It is simple, unassuming, mid-priced solution. You can probably purchase it used for very good price because quie a few users are selling it impacted by this bad review.

 

[steve59]

This forum, to a casual observer like myself seems to have an agenda, like an audiophile will go to extremes to improve their system this forum takes pleasure in mocking us for it. You have to own a pair of revels driven my benchmark amps for passive or genelec for active. period. I like that we have many options.

 

[CrustyToad]

Many opinions are great. In this forum they are valued greatly when they are based on measurable, objective facts.
Based on measurable objective facts the Hegel is not a good buy

Hegel H95 Review (Streaming Amplifier)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Hegel H95 integrated amplifier with DAC and streaming support. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $2000. The H95 looks pretty nice: I really like the large, high resolution and very responsive graphic display. What I don't like is...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Any of the ncore or purifi amps would be a good match for the ls50 meta. They are sold by several manufacturers and have shown to be load independ and transparent. As a bonus they are also energy efficient and not very expensive

 

[MAB]

I am one satisfied owner of ls50 Metas + Hegel H95 integrated amplifier which got maybe the worst review ever at ASR. It obviouslu is not state of the art amplifier but was shown here in much worse light than it really is because of inappropriate interpretation of measurings results, and some strange results that were only noticed here.

How so? What are the strange results? How were the measurements misinterpreted? It didn't even deliver rated power, and that is the least of the problems. Please tell us where this was measured and got good results. The problem isn't state of the art, it is substandard. And, it is $2000, that's a ton of money. To recommend this is incoherent, unless you have some actual data that to the contrary.

It replaced all my external DACs, streamers, kables, true one box solution and my wife is very happy because of it.
For music I am usually streaming Tidal from iPod via AirPlay and it works very well. For TV/video is connected through toslink and it also works like a charm.
This amp works very well with LS50 Metas if you are listening at low to medium levels. If you are listening at high volumes, you should choose other speakers, because no amplifier will make ls50s play loud without distortion in normal configuration.
There are some concerns about low level on Line out but SVS 3000 Micro sub connected through Line out works fine.

It is simple, unassuming, mid-priced solution. You can probably purchase it used for very good price because quie a few users are selling it impacted by this bad review.

It's not mid-priced.

This forum, to a casual observer like myself seems to have an agenda, like an audiophile will go to extremes to improve their system this forum takes pleasure in mocking us for it. You have to own a pair of revels driven my benchmark amps for passive or genelec for active. period. I like that we have many options.

Maybe more Hegel gear needs to be tested. The H95 is an unmitigated disaster on so many fronts so there is not a warm-fuzzy feeling. Perhaps some of their other kit tests well. There are lots more than Benchmark and Genelec that get good reviews here and being part of a particular brand is not the important thing. What is important is that if you make an amp for as much money as Hegel, it better test well. The H95 failed in ways that do cast doubt on Hegel's abilities. Genelec may not be everybody's thing, and their amps and DACs are not even the best performing, but they measure and sound fantastic. Shouldn't be a surprise given the history. Benchmark flat-out performs. It's just silly to claim that only a few brands are liked here.

 

[Bogda]

How so? What are the strange results? How were the measurements misinterpreted? It didn't even deliver rated power, and that is the least of the problems. Please tell us where this was measured and got good results. The problem isn't state of the art, it is substandard. And, it is $2000, that's a ton of money. To recommend this is incoherent, unless you have some actual data that to the contrary.

For misinterpreted measurements I meant driving Line Level outputs into clipping, measuring SINAD and assuming that DAC performance is "bottom list of some 350 DACs tested" with SINAD 61dB. You cannot test DAC inside this unit as with separate DAC/Preamp. Those Line Level outputs are basically sub out connection without low pass filter.
I can agree that 2000$ amp should have proper Pre Out but it does not mean DAC has SINAD of 61dB.
For strange results I meant stability measurements for which was commented as "worst measurement ever". It is hard for me to believe this and assume there was some mistake in measuring, maybe damage in manipulation of shipping.
Even when these facts were pointed by Hegel representative, there was no will to correct conclusions and comments made and maybe remeasure something.

Amplifier can deliver rated power of 60W into 8Ohms at roughly 0.06%THD (many companies quote 1%THD). Again you can argue that it is too little for 2000$ but many other companies have similar power at similar prices.
Analog part measures "very good/good". No AB class amplifier can compare to Class D amps strictly in measurements. There was no listening test.

There were comments that "DAC and headphone amplifier out are junk" and "better left out" with which I strongly disagree. I use headphones to watch late night game while my wife is sleeping and never for music. Integrated DAC adds a lot to convenience. I play my Tidal hi res music from iPad through AirPlay and use iPad volume rocker to control the volume. I can turn on h95 from my iPad, and it goes into standby on its own after 10 minutes. Very convenient.

It's not mid-priced.

It is mid priced. It should be compared to other all-in-one systems, not to budget Chinese chip amplifiers.
As budget all-in-ones I consider PowerNode (Edge), Sonos Amp or Audiolab 6000Play (around 1000$/eur), midrange is Hegel H95, NAD C700 and Cambridge Audio Evo 75 etc around 2000$/eur, and expensive units are Naim Unity line, Cambridge Audio Evo 150, NAD M10 etc.

Maybe more Hegel gear needs to be tested. The H95 is an unmitigated disaster on so many fronts so there is not a warm-fuzzy feeling. Perhaps some of their other kit tests well. There are lots more than Benchmark and Genelec that get good reviews here and being part of a particular brand is not the important thing. What is important is that if you make an amp for as much money as Hegel, it better test well. The H95 failed in ways that do cast doubt on Hegel's abilities. Genelec may not be everybody's thing, and their amps and DACs are not even the best performing, but they measure and sound fantastic. Shouldn't be a surprise given the history. Benchmark flat-out performs. It's just silly to claim that only a few brands are liked here.

I love Amir's work and this forum. I think Amir and people involved in forum are doing a very good job at pointing snake oil in audio industry and this place is precious these days. However it looses some of its credibility because of unwillingness to correct small mistakes. Comments that some components are "unmitigated disaster" by people who never heard it or laid a finger on it do not help either.

 

[MAB]

For misinterpreted measurements I meant driving Line Level outputs into clipping, measuring SINAD and assuming that DAC performance is "bottom list of some 350 DACs tested" with SINAD 61dB. You cannot test DAC inside this unit as with separate DAC/Preamp. Those Line Level outputs are basically sub out connection without low pass filter.
I can agree that 2000$ amp should have proper Pre Out but it does not mean DAC has SINAD of 61dB.
For strange results I meant stability measurements for which was commented as "worst measurement ever". It is hard for me to believe this and assume there was some mistake in measuring, maybe damage in manipulation of shipping.
Even when these facts were pointed by Hegel representative, there was no will to correct conclusions and comments made and maybe remeasure something.

No need to remeasure. You misinterpreted the review and measurements. You either don't understand or you are making excuses for a really substandard product. And the stability measurements really do look bad. Sorry you don't wish to believe. I guess it isn't a surprise given how badly Hegel botched nearly every other aspect of the device. Do you really think they are sophisticated enough to do a feed-forward error correction that doesn't actually introduce more instability?

Amplifier can deliver rated power of 60W into 8Ohms at roughly 0.06%THD (many companies quote 1%THD). Again you can argue that it is too little for 2000$ but many other companies have similar power at similar prices.
Analog part measures "very good/good". No AB class amplifier can compare to Class D amps strictly in measurements. There was no listening test.

OK, let's say the amp actually gets to 60W, that is anemic. For 2 grand doubly so. But it didn't even do that. You make excuses.

There were comments that "DAC and headphone amplifier out are junk" and "better left out" with which I strongly disagree. I use headphones to watch late night game while my wife is sleeping and never for music. Integrated DAC adds a lot to convenience. I play my Tidal hi res music from iPad through AirPlay and use iPad volume rocker to control the volume. I can turn on h95 from my iPad, and it goes into standby on its own after 10 minutes. Very convenient.

Headphone amplifier is bad; 77 Ohm output impedance is a fundamental error of design. Only an idiot would design this. It is fundamentally broken and I'm not sure how you can make an excuse for this. On top of that it has excessive noise, which is a bad thing for headphones. And, 80mW output power is is marginal at best, and becomes absolutely crap with lower impedance phones because you get less power and distorted frequency response.

It is mid priced. It should be compared to other all-in-one systems, not to budget Chinese chip amplifiers.
As budget all-in-ones I consider PowerNode (Edge), Sonos Amp or Audiolab 6000Play (around 1000$/eur), midrange is Hegel H95, NAD C700 and Cambridge Audio Evo 75 etc around 2000$/eur, and expensive units are Naim Unity line, Cambridge Audio Evo 150, NAD M10 etc.

Forget the comparisons, the Hegel is an unmitigated disaster. $2000 is a ton of money to spend. I would feel horrible.

I love Amir's work and this forum.

Unless a piece you own got a poor review.

I think Amir and people involved in forum are doing a very good job at pointing snake oil in audio industry and this place is precious these days.

Hegel seems to be snake oil, it is fundamentally flawed in an umber of ways. I am eager to see other Hegel gear reviewed, but hard to imagine that a team of hacks will do better unless the H95 is a one-off basket-case.

However it looses some of its credibility because of unwillingness to correct small mistakes.

You haven't pointed out any mistakes, just made non-technical allusions.

Comments that some components are "unmitigated disaster" by people who never heard it or laid a finger on it do not help either.

The point of ASR review is to prevent people from purchasing unmitigated disasters, this is a prime example. It doesn't tell me if I should buy a Benchmark or a PuriFi or a Bryston amp, but it does allow me to weed out the unacceptable performers. Hegel is definitely unacceptable. If you have specific instructions on how Amir messed the review up, PM him to address or post specifics in the review thread. None of the complaints that were raised by you or other's in the review were physically or electrically relevant. If I missed a gem, please point me to it.

Your Hegel is simply not an appropriate recommendation. It is the antithesis of what ASR is about, and your arguments are the same.

 

[Bogda]

No need to remeasure. You misinterpreted the review and measurements. You either don't understand or you are making excuses for a really substandard product. And the stability measurements really do look bad. Sorry you don't wish to believe. I guess it isn't a surprise given how badly Hegel botched nearly every other aspect of the device. Do you really think they are sophisticated enough to do a feed-forward error correction that doesn't actually introduce more instability?

I said that Line Out was driven into clipping so results cannot be interpreted as they were, they are meaningless if amp is clipping. Any device driven into clipping will measure terribly.
Hegel provided their diagram for stability measurement which is without anomalies. That is why I believe there was something wrong with the measurement at ASR. Mistakes happen.

OK, let's say the amp actually gets to 60W, that is anemic. For 2 grand doubly so. But it didn't even do that. You make excuses.

60W can be plenty depending on the size of your room and volumes you are listening at.

Headphone amplifier is bad; 77 Ohm output impedance is a fundamental error of design. Only an idiot would design this. It is fundamentally broken and I'm not sure how you can make an excuse for this. On top of that it has excessive noise, which is a bad thing for headphones. And, 80mW output power is is marginal at best, and becomes absolutely crap with lower impedance phones because you get less power and distorted frequency response.

The headphone amp is nothing to write home about, but such they are on most integrated amps. To Hegel credit, they did not argue with those measurements.
It provides me with basic function I explained already, and without it I would not have bought this device.

Forget the comparisons, the Hegel is an unmitigated disaster. $2000 is a ton of money to spend. I would feel horrible.

Unless a piece you own got a poor review.

No, I like ASR especially when it makes a review of the device I own, good or bad. KEF ls50 got a good review, h95 got bad, so what?

Hegel seems to be snake oil, it is fundamentally flawed in an umber of ways. I am eager to see other Hegel gear reviewed, but hard to imagine that a team of hacks will do better unless the H95 is a one-off basket-case.

You haven't pointed out any mistakes, just made non-technical allusions.

I pointed one obvious and one likely mistake, you just choose to ignore it.

The point of ASR review is to prevent people from purchasing unmitigated disasters, this is a prime example. It doesn't tell me if I should buy a Benchmark or a PuriFi or a Bryston amp, but it does allow me to weed out the unacceptable performers. Hegel is definitely unacceptable. If you have specific instructions on how Amir messed the review up, PM him to address or post specifics in the review thread. None of the complaints that were raised by you or other's in the review were physically or electrically relevant. If I missed a gem, please point me to it.

Your Hegel is simply not an appropriate recommendation. It is the antithesis of what ASR is about, and your arguments are the same.

H95 is not an amazing device but it should be compared against other all-in-ones and none of them measures great. However, there are advantages to owning such a device that just works.
After more than a year of owning it, in my use scenario which is typical for an European apartment-dwelling user, I can say it is not nearly as bad as portrayed here. It sounds good, has no problem driving my ls50 + sub in my living room, can function as stereo or part of multichannel home theatre, it is very stable, simple and convenient to use. I like simple and functional design...
My biggest gripe is missing Tidal Connect but AirPlay functions very well, it is very stable although less efficient.
Who cares if jitter performance is not great if those errors are inaudible.

I would not recommend paying full price for it but if one can buy it used, at good discount, one should not hesitate to go for it. I bet quite a few customers sold their almost new h95 after reading this review.

What is the point in arguing any further? This is not h95 thread, there are 68 pages of arguing already and nothing new can be said.

 

[Georgeadv]

Why hasnt amir done another measurement to see if the results are different?

 

[Bogda]

Why hasnt amir done another measurement to see if the results are different?

There is no need to do another measurement on worst measurement, SINAD at Line Out. You cannot measure DAC performance driving Line Out at industry standard PreOut 2V because these Line Outs are not Preamp Outs. These outputs are basically Subwoofer Outs without low level filter.
For stability I do not know, at that time he was doing so many tests, I think he simply did not have time.

 

[Georgeadv]

There is no need to do another measurement on worst measurement, SINAD at Line Out. You cannot measure DAC performance driving Line Out at industry standard PreOut 2V because these Line Outs are not Preamp Outs. These outputs are basically Subwoofer Outs without low level filter.
For stability I do not know, at that time he was doing so many tests, I think he simply did not have time.

So there is no way that he would have otherwise tested this?

 

[Bogda]

So there is no way that he would have otherwise tested this?

For DAC performance that was the only way. Up to 0.5V results are meaningful but hard to compare with other devices.
At "Intermodulation distortion diagram", you can see that DAC performance is around 20bB worse than excellent Topping DX3Pro.
Clipping above 0.535V means this devise cannot be used as PreAmp which realistically is not that important because best part of h95 is its poweramp. Not commendable for 2000$ device but not as bad as looking at quick glance.

 

[Georgeadv]

For DAC performance that was the only way. Up to 0.5V results are meaningful but hard to compare with other devices.
At "Intermodulation distortion diagram", you can see that DAC performance is around 20bB worse than excellent Topping DX3Pro.
Clipping above 0.535V means this devise cannot be used as PreAmp which realistically is not that important because best part of h95 is its poweramp. Not commendable for 2000$ device but not as bad as looking at quick glance.

So it could have decent performance… not the best but okay

If you hooked up a e30 or e50 dac what would be the fault of this amp other than the price?

 

[MAB]

I said that Line Out was driven into clipping so results cannot be interpreted as they were, they are meaningless if amp is clipping. Any device driven into clipping will measure terribly.
Hegel provided their diagram for stability measurement which is without anomalies. That is why I believe there was something wrong with the measurement at ASR. Mistakes happen.

60W can be plenty depending on the size of your room and volumes you are listening at.

The headphone amp is nothing to write home about, but such they are on most integrated amps. To Hegel credit, they did not argue with those measurements.
It provides me with basic function I explained already, and without it I would not have bought this device.

No, I like ASR especially when it makes a review of the device I own, good or bad. KEF ls50 got a good review, h95 got bad, so what?

I pointed one obvious and one likely mistake, you just choose to ignore it.

H95 is not an amazing device but it should be compared against other all-in-ones and none of them measures great. However, there are advantages to owning such a device that just works.
After more than a year of owning it, in my use scenario which is typical for an European apartment-dwelling user, I can say it is not nearly as bad as portrayed here. It sounds good, has no problem driving my ls50 + sub in my living room, can function as stereo or part of multichannel home theatre, it is very stable, simple and convenient to use. I like simple and functional design...
My biggest gripe is missing Tidal Connect but AirPlay functions very well, it is very stable although less efficient.
Who cares if jitter performance is not great if those errors are inaudible.

I would not recommend paying full price for it but if one can buy it used, at good discount, one should not hesitate to go for it. I bet quite a few customers sold their almost new h95 after reading this review.

What is the point in arguing any further? This is not h95 thread, there are 68 pages of arguing already and nothing new can be said.

So funny, line out clips due to poor design, not the way you say it. The clipping is a due Hegel's lack of understanding of dynamic range, a bad design choice, and one that will occur audibly in normal music operation, it's already been pointed by numerous people with all sorts of engineering and technical experience. The unit will have zero headroom at best and will clip. Just one of the many bad choices made by Hegel. Behind this clipping smokescreen is a DAC with bottom tier distortion performance, make no doubt about it. Yes, the DAC actually performs slightly better than the ~60dB SINAD, look IMD vs. input level and ask yourself where does this DAC perform well? It doesn't at any input level, That's why it is a train accident, the poor DAC performance is only bested by the clipping. Amir measured this, you are really not interpreting the results correctly. It got pointed out by about 20 people with advanced degrees in electronics and technical experience. The clipping is so wrong and you are holding on to it for dear life as if it is the savior of the unit. Plus, every other subsystem is flawed. Maybe it streams well, but so does JRiver or Roon or whatever and an RME DAC, or a dongle, or whatever...
And it is a $2000 piece in an expensive line. Would love to see if the rest of their gear can redeem the company. Given they can't even get basic input levels right but still charge an arm and a leg, likely not.

 

[MAB]

I stand by the reviews on ASR and seriously take the results into consideration. The testing here is many times better than many manufacturers do. Some manufacturers have responded to poor reviews and made engineering strides. Poorly measured/reviewed equipment doesn't deserve an excuse. There are plenty of good performing alternatives being engineered by companies that strive to achieve good performance. There are unfortunately even more companies that produce incoherently designed equipment with poor performance, even with safety issues due to lack of good engineering. While some of this poor-performing gear is fine to own (I own vintage McIntosh tube amps), it is not fine to push on people asking simple advice on a reasonable amp to drive a pair of speakers. I would never recommend a pair of MC-30 to OP to drive their speakers.

OP needs 100-200 Watts of clean non snake-oil power for the LS50 Meta. There are tons of options.

 

[Deleted member 4708]

I would stay away from anything miniDSP/Topping/SMSL. Horror stories of anti-customer support. Read up before buying any of these. Have you thought of BlueSound Node? Decent stuff imo. Cannot vouch for their support.

 

[Deleted member 4708]

...

The point of ASR review is to prevent people from purchasing unmitigated disasters, ...

Is that so? Interesting how quality problems of miniDSP/Topping/SMSL are brushed aside in this altruistic effort. IF ASR wanted indeed " to prevent people from purchasing unmitigated disasters" product quality and customer support would be one of the main discussion points here.
I purchased a miniDSP after the ASR review to find out later about their customer support. The minDSP SHD arrived with a dead Ethernet port. It took weeks, dozen of email, calls with the dealer, many hours spent going through useless steps dictated by miniDSP - otherwise they will not fix it. etc. Sold it the day I got it fixed. Never again will I buy anything from miniDSP.

 

[Sokel]

I'm I the only one paying attention to the room dimensions?Is an amp the only concern here?

Integrated for LS50 Meta;

I enjoyed Amir’s review of the KEF LS50 Meta & plan on purchasing a pair. I am wondering what integrated amp at less than $1,500 would be adequate to power them cleanly? I would appreciate recommendations. Thanks, Joe in Tampa

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[MAB]

Is that so? Interesting how quality problems of miniDSP/Topping/SMSL are brushed aside in this altruistic effort. IF ASR wanted indeed " to prevent people from purchasing unmitigated disasters" product quality and customer support would be one of the main discussion points here.
I purchased a miniDSP after the ASR review to find out later about their customer support. The minDSP SHD arrived with a dead Ethernet port. It took weeks, dozen of email, calls with the dealer, many hours spent doing what miniDSP was asking - otherwise they will not fit it. etc. Sold it the day I got it fixed. Never again will I buy anything from miniDSP.

Yes, I know the Topping and SMSL stories and I know your MiniDSP story and they suck. I bought a Topping PA5 which died and there is on ASR thread devoted to PA5 defects and horrible customer service. Agreed, that objectively measured performance is only one necessary aspect but is insufficient product. Quality is another. And customer service is yet another. Problem is, Quality and Customer service are not directly measurable. Quality testing is extremely difficult and way beyond ASR or any review site, this was also explicitly laid out in the PA5 thread. So yes, there is additional data outside of perf that is required. But poor perf definitely excludes a unit from consideration. Quality is just so hard for an end user to measure. I wish it wasn't that way. But we can use ASR to weed out the obvious performance clunkers. And it is hard to believe that a company that can't get input headroom right also is designing a quality product. The flip side of the coin is not all high performance products have good reliability or customer service.

p.s. I do feel badly about your MiniDSP experience and reliability is maddening, especially when you get poor after-sales support. I had previously believed them to have stellar customer support. I own a ton of their gear, and actually had one DSP go bad, they drop shipped me a replacement no questions asked, didn't even ask for the broken unit back. Your story is concerning though. I don't know what has changed...

 

[pablolie]

The LS50 sound even better when carefully matched with a sub, offloaded at 70-80Hz (some say higher, but that makes the matching trickier, IMO). Hence, an integrated amp with a sub out (either at the "standard" 80Hz or configurable) that is linear and load-independent is desirable, IMO.