First "Audiophile" DAC/Amp for LS50 Meta

[SeanTek]

I picked up a pair of LS50 Metas about two weeks ago since they were on sale, and I could put the budgetary savings to better gear than if I got LS50 Wireless II speakers (which were also on sale at the time). Can I get short and sweet recommendations for DAC/Amps to pair with the LS50 Metas? No subwoofer yet; I will ask about subwoofers on a different thread.

There are two applications (thus, two different recommendations requested):

1) connect to computer and use for computer listening. Just want high quality DAC + amp, preferably integrated with 32-bit/384kHz support.

2) connect to Sony Bravia XBR-75X90CH TV in family room via eARC or optical out. Currently there are no additional speakers and no receiver. Any streaming would be done through the TV itself or through connected devices (Roku, AirPlay 2, Samsung 4K UHD player, etc.). I could invest in a surround-sound receiver, but choose not to at this time. A receiver @ $400-1000 will underperform for the LS50 Metas, or @ $4000-8000 will be significantly over-budget. A receiver would also support many audio channels that I do not need at this time. So basically I just want a very high-quality stereo amp that takes one digital input, has 2-channel amplified output, and one RCA or XLR output for subwoofer connection.

In both cases, I want an extremely low self-noise floor, i.e., no hiss at about 30" (2.5ft) away. I guess in either case, the budget is up to $2K.

 

[staticV3]

I'd give the WiiM Amp a try.

 

[Ron Texas]

Get a MiniDSP HD or Flex for your DAC. It has inputs for USB and toslink and will allow room EQ to be applied to both. If you add a sub or two later it has a crossover and the ability to apply delay (usually desired for the mains). Get a Hypex NC252 for a power amp.

 

[Ajax]

I'm using a SMSL SU8 DAC with a Buckeye Hypex MP252 amp with great results.

The SU8 has optical, coaxial and USB inputs so will work for both the computer and TV. Also has both balanced and RCA outputs. In my case balanced goes to the amp to drive the Metas full range and the RCA to the sub (set at say 60hz), other wise you can route through the sub using it's cross over then to the Buckeye / Metas.

The SU8 is a few years old now but there would be a newer model or a Topping that would do the job well. You should find a suitable DAC for $150-200 & Amp for $570. ... about $750 total for very near SOTA front end.

If you can afford it I'd go for the Minidsp Flex ($550) suggested above by Ron instead of the SU8 as a DAC.

Search here on ASR for Amir's reviews.

Good luck

 

[Power Pop 23]

Consider waiting to see what inputs and outputs WiiM deploys in their upcoming 'Ultra' streaming device. WiiM has confirmed the Ultra will have a USB audio output. With such a WiiM, one should be able to route the optical output of a TV to a USB in on a computer. The computer could be running Dirac Live software before the signal is sent on to a performant DAC/Headphone Amp/Speaker Amp. I hope to use a WiiM Ultra in that way. WiiM says the Ultra will be released by '2Q2024'

WiiM Ultra

Updated on 5/25/2024 Check out this fuller thread about our official announcement of the WiiM Ultra - https://forum.wiimhome.com/threads/meet-wiim-ultra-the-digital-hub-for-your-music.3487/ Updated on 4/19/2024 Hi Team, We're excited to give you a sneak peek at the WiiM Ultra, your future...

forum.wiimhome.com

The above are good suggestions. Perhaps it is practical to be able to audition two options before one return window closes.

There are a lot of DACs, headphone amps, and speaker amplifiers that would be performant. One option within your budget are 'select' Peachtree Audio Carina integrated amplifers. I having been using an earlier variant of the current models since late May 2023. It shut down once - for unknown reasons - and restarted itself. I am satisfied with it.

The Peachree Carina '150' uses a Hypex NC252MP amplfier module and for $500 more, the Carina '300' offers twice the output power with Hypex NC502MP module.

Buckeye Amps offers an enclosure fitted with a 2-channel NC252 amp module for $575 and the same enclosure with a NC502MP module for $695.

 

[Timcognito]

SoundStage! Hi-Fi | SoundStageHiFi.com - miniDSP SHD Power Integrated Amplifier-DAC

www.soundstagehifi.com

 

[SeanTek]

I made a little spreadsheet of the suggestions in this thread, plus added the NAD C 389 / C 399 which are recommended elsewhere:

DAC/Amps for LS50 Meta

docs.google.com

For TV/Home Theater "Lite" applications, it seems that only the NAD C 389 / C 399 have HDMI eARC support, which is mutually exclusive with USB support (for computer/desktop applications) in the recommendation list so far.

I think I will pass on WiiM Amp but wait for WiiM Ultra.

In the meantime, the other options are in the ~$225 + $600 range for separates (MiniDSP + Buckeye amp) = $800 to $1K. So basically for ~$500 more, in the $1500-2000 range, you get an integrated product (Peachtree Carnia / NAD integrated amplifier). The pricing is about the same if your DAC is the MiniDSP SHD Studio ($949 + $600). I did not add the MiniDSP SHD ($1299) because I have no need for analog inputs.

...and all these options have incredibly low self-noise, right? I was disappointed with the idle hiss on the KEF LSX II in the last week, which was one reason why I passed up the KEF LS50 Wireless II. (I also recall demoing the LS50 Wireless II about a year and a half ago, and being annoyed by the idle hiss, but my memory is hazy on this point.)

 

[SeanTek]

Let me also ask, any thoughts on the SMSL A2 ($999), A6 ($449), or A8 ($599) integrated amplifiers? They have USB (2.0) inputs, no HDMI, so they fall in the computer desktop application category rather than family room/home theater category.

(Note that the KEF LS50 Wireless II supports HDMI eARC, so I think asking for HDMI eARC in the DAC is reasonable.)

 

[Timcognito]

Don't forget SHD Power, lots of features, great test specs.

SoundStage! Hi-Fi | SoundStageHiFi.com - miniDSP SHD Power Integrated Amplifier-DAC

www.soundstagehifi.com

 

[SeanTek]

I think the SHD Power has too many features for me (compared to SHD Studio).

The only SMSL that probably makes sense is the SMSL VMV A2 ($999); ignore my other two suggestions.

Some other ones to look at (I now know that I guess I am asking for an "integrated amplifier"):

Arcam SA30
Arcam SA20
Arcam A25
Cambridge Audio CXA81 (people seem to say it's noisy...)

 

[rolfrander]

If the combination of USB and HDMI ARC is important, this is provided by the MiniDSP "HT"-series. However, there is also usb-to-s/pdif-adapters available which gives you more available options. (Depending on your computer, you might also have s/pdif toslink built in)

(Edit: link to thread regarding usb-to-s/pdif)

 

[bibi2000]

I made a little spreadsheet of the suggestions in this thread, plus added the NAD C 389 / C 399 which are recommended elsewhere:

DAC/Amps for LS50 Meta

docs.google.com

For TV/Home Theater "Lite" applications, it seems that only the NAD C 389 / C 399 have HDMI eARC support, which is mutually exclusive with USB support (for computer/desktop applications) in the recommendation list so far.

I think I will pass on WiiM Amp but wait for WiiM Ultra.

In the meantime, the other options are in the ~$225 + $600 range for separates (MiniDSP + Buckeye amp) = $800 to $1K. So basically for ~$500 more, in the $1500-2000 range, you get an integrated product (Peachtree Carnia / NAD integrated amplifier). The pricing is about the same if your DAC is the MiniDSP SHD Studio ($949 + $600). I did not add the MiniDSP SHD ($1299) because I have no need for analog inputs.

...and all these options have incredibly low self-noise, right? I was disappointed with the idle hiss on the KEF LSX II in the last week, which was one reason why I passed up the KEF LS50 Wireless II. (I also recall demoing the LS50 Wireless II about a year and a half ago, and being annoyed by the idle hiss, but my memory is hazy on this point.)

Actually, I did change my system from a Home Cinema (NAD T758v3 & Qacoustic 3050 - was ok) to the following system:

TV - Optic -> MiniDSP Studio (Dirac is no brainer) with Volumio - Coax ->Topping E70V - (Mogami XLR)>Boxem A 5517/N2 -> Kef LS50 Meta & - Coax->Khadas Tone Dac-> T-Rel Mini Mk3.
All supplied with Supra power distribution - Silver Black edition -/cables & Supra Ply 3.4 shielded speaker cables.

The most difficult part is the Timing/Cross Over/EQ/Dirac setting & calibration as my sofa is sticked to the wall from 3m distance from the TV / Speakers.
After this tuning phase "No Audible Noise" just music and even great soundstage with TV LCPM signal (Netflix...etc)

Eventually, I will buy new "real 70ohm" coax cables and a WiiM Pro+/Ultra to complete the system ;-).
Afterwhat, may be if my wife allows me, I will enhanced our 30meter square living room with proper sound treatment (the reverb seem ok @ 200ms)

 

[SeanTek]

Kind of want to resurrect this thread as I ended up waiting and am revisiting my options. I updated the spreadsheet a little bit.

For my personal preferences, it seems to come down to the NAD C 399 (with HDMI eARC) vs the Peachtree Audio Carina 300 (with USB). I really just want an excellent 2.0/2.1 setup with an integrated stereo amplifier rather than separate stages. I have not yet come across a convincing integrated stereo amplifier to pair with the LS50 Metas that supports both HDMI eARC and USB. Consequently, it seems that Peachtree is the way to go for PC/desktop/audio appliance (USB-out) listening.

In TV/home theater land, it's mostly HDMI ARC/eARC, but what is now intriguing to me is that most large TVs have USB ports and at least a few appear to support USB audio DACs. Here is a Reddit thread talking about USB audio for new Samsung TVs, and here is a Sony.com thread talking about USB audio for Sony TVs. Whether the sound quality is good or poor seems to be an experimental question, as I have not found a TV manufacturer that openly supports this capability. But it opens the possibility of using the Peachtree Audio Carina (and any other USB-oriented DAC or integrated amp) if you want to go that way.

 

[Verig]

There's very little reason for a TV to have usb audio out so I wouldn't hold my breath. Those forum experiences seem normal. It works, works with limitations or weird features (not bugs/faults because it's not specced to work) or doesn't work at all.

 

[nerdstrike]

On the one hand ARC can be a bit flaky depending on the TV, on the other eARC supports audio sync... I suspect you'd have fun with trying to add delay with a USB out on a TV.

 

[bibi2000]

If i would start from scratch my set up, i would consider discret solution based on wiim ultra and a power amplifier as starting point. Its délivrer all inputs and support a sub...

 

[SeanTek]

On the one hand ARC can be a bit flaky depending on the TV, on the other eARC supports audio sync... I suspect you'd have fun with trying to add delay with a USB out on a TV.

This reply got me to researching more about audio latency, including this RTINGS article on AV-Sync Error when connecting a sound device (soundbar, or in this case, integrated amp) to a TV using HDMI ARC/eARC. The TL;DR appears to be that to minimize audio lag, it is best to connect the source device to the sound device (soundbar/integrated amp/receiver) and then connect the HDMI out of that device to the TV. That way, the audio device can start processing the sound while the video signal is being sent to the TV for video processing and display. The RTINGS article determined that in their testing, there is no additional video latency added (0-1ms) when going source -> soundbar -> TV.

AV sync is very important to me as someone who plays games. However, all of the options listed in this thread so far that have an HDMI input, do not have any HDMI outputs! It seems that this feature is really not found in any stereo integrated amplifiers. If I want HDMI pass-through (and I want to power passive speakers, not a soundbar), I think I need to get a receiver...but since I am intentionally building a non-surround-sound 2.0/2.1 home theater environment at this time, a receiver that matches the LS50 Metas would be overkill and out of budget (e.g., NAD T 778 = $3500).

I found this Essence HDACC II-4K HDMI DAC review ($649) and it looks like it could solve the problem. Combine this with the Hypex NC252MP ($575) or Hypex NC502MP ($695) and we have a possible winning combination.

But the HDACC II-4K has two problems: 1) it only supports HDMI v2.0b, so it is not future-proofed; 2) it apparently doesn't support ARC or eARC, which means that for all the programming that comes from the TV itself (where latency either doesn't matter, or can't be helped since the TV gets first dibs on the signal), we are SOL. The HDACC II-4K does support USB input if I can get the USB audio output to work from the TV but latency and compatibility over USB are just big unknown questions that we won't know without a lot of experimentation.

Are there any other integrated stereo amplifiers, or stereo preamps, that have HDMI pass-through, where you don't need to pay for all the extra channels of an AV receiver or AV surround processor? (I only need one HDMI input--similar to most soundbars--not multiple inputs like a traditional AV receiver.)

 

[SeanTek]

There's very little reason for a TV to have usb audio out so I wouldn't hold my breath. Those forum experiences seem normal. It works, works with limitations or weird features (not bugs/faults because it's not specced to work) or doesn't work at all.

I got a couple of USB Audio devices (Yamaha AG03 and AG03 MK II mixers and Creative Sound Blaster X3) and plugged them into my Sony Bravia XBR-75X90CH TV. I determined that USB Audio will work in stereo mode but only from the TV itself, i.e., from native apps such as YouTube. Sound from the ATSC tuner and sound from the HDMI inputs refuses to go through USB. Netflix also refuses to play protected content when a USB Audio device is plugged in. Hence, for Sony Android TVs (or at least my TV), USB Audio is worthless.

I asked NAD Support a bit about lip-sync and gaming timing issues over the weekend and the response was not encouraging. The support specialist said that neither the C 389 nor C 999 have a "home theater bypass" feature, and all sound coming in will be delayed by the ADC > DAC (the initial response did not clarify whether or not ADC was used for digital inputs--which would not make any sense).

Basically if timing and synchronization with video is a desirable property, it seems that you need to look in the AVR market, not in the "stereo" market. There seems to be an invisible dividing line between a lot of products intended to listen to music sources, and products intended to use with video (TV/gaming) sources.

I am now eyeing the MiniDSP HT and MiniDSP HTx, paired with the Buckeye Hypex NC502MP 2-channel amplifier. The miniDSP Flex is out because I do want HDMI eARC support. I also want balanced audio if I go with separates (something that the Buckeye Hypex NC series supports) but getting the HTx seems like quite overkill since I am intentionally only using two channels.

 

[SeanTek]

Starting to settle on MiniDSP HT with UMIK-2 microphone and tripod, plus Dirac license. For the amplifier I am holding the Buckeye Hypex NC502MP 2-channel amplifier in my mind. I am letting go of the Peachtree Carina 150 and 300 due to lack of HDMI eARC and the first application for this setup is with a TV. I understand that if latency is preceived to be an issue, the solution appears to be to get an HDFury HDMI Adapter to fork the audio signal to the MiniDSP HT between the source HDMI device and the TV.

Now I need to fill out the system, including interconnects:

I am considering the KEF KC92 subwoofer.

WORLDS BEST CABLES - RCA to XLR (Male) Cable Pair - Canare L-4E6S Star-Quad Audio Interconnect Cable & Amphenol ACPL RCA & Neutrik Male XLR Gold Plugs. 1 foot to 3 feet. Considered Mogami Gold cables but they don't appear to make 3 foot or less in stock configurations, and World's Best Cables is $30.95 or less for a pair instead of $53.95 for one cable (Mogami gold-xlrm-rca-03 or 06).

Need an RCA subwoofer cable. WBC RCA cables are probably fine but I cannot seem to find them in lengths > 5 ft online. I own a Blue Jeans BJC LC-1 subwoofer cable, which has served me well but the RCA connectors on the ends are extremely long and thick and actually interfere with speaker and equipment placement a little bit. Thinking about SVS SoundPath Subwoofer Cable (3 to 8 meters) because it's a good brand, I perceive the price to be reasonable, and the interconnects do not look nearly as long and thick as the BJC LC-1 cable's interconnects.

Speaker cables--likely inspires endless arguments amongst audiophiles . Currently considering BJC Belden 5000UE (Gray jacket, 12 AWG) with locking banana plugs. Probably 4 to 8 feet. Want the connector for convenience, welded connection, good brand, don't see a need to go thicker than 12 AWG.

Already have satisfactory HDMI and USB cables.

Sound good? Anything else?

 

[blackiridium]

I'm in a very similar situation as you. I settled on a pair of KEF R6s with a MiniDsp HTx. I still haven't decided on an amplifier though. I also need a subwoofer and was actually looking at passive sub options without any luck. I need to run the sub quite a distance away from the system hence the need for this. Have you also considered RSL subs? They look good and are 1/4 the price of the KEF you're looking at.