Inside High-res audio: PCM vs MQA vs CD: 2L Sampler Comparison

[Herbert]

Check Giya Kancheli. Big range in his recordings.

 

[xaviescacs]

Check Giya Kancheli. Big range in his recordings.

That was unknown to me. Of course, after the second half the the XXth century, it is another story, and there is plenty of "classical" music with huge differences between the soft and the loud passages.

 

[HD MOVIE SOURCE]

I think a big question is, this information on DSD music, those high tone information, or noise, can amplifiers/pre-amps even play music above the audio hearing level?
Because I can't imagine most do, after 20k that's pretty much it right?

 

[amirm]

I think a big question is, this information on DSD music, those high tone information, or noise, can amplifiers/pre-amps even play music above the audio hearing level?
Because I can't imagine most do, after 20k that's pretty much it right?

Oh, they easily can. Here is the frequency response of a few amplifiers:

Headphone amp:

Speaker amp:

Just 5 dB down at 80 kHz:

Just 5 dB down at 90 kHz:

Pre-amplifier:

AVR:

Really, you will find it next to impossible to find an amp/pre-amp that stops at 20 to 30 kHz. Your speaker or headphone will be the main limiter.

 

[amirm]

From the beginning, Philips argued for 14 bits, whereas Doi who represented Sony favored 16 bits.

Funny that you should quote this as Dr. Doi was my boss at Sony (two levels up)! He would tell me many stories about working with Philips. None positive.

 

[HD MOVIE SOURCE]

Oh, they easily can. Here is the frequency response of a few amplifiers:

Headphone amp:

Speaker amp:

Just 5 dB down at 80 kHz:

Just 5 dB down at 90 kHz:

Pre-amplifier:

AVR:

Really, you will find it next to impossible to find an amp/pre-amp that stops at 20 to 30 kHz. Your speaker or headphone will be the main limiter.

So some amplifiers can basically go up to 100k with only a 3 db loss? To be honest that's pretty impressive. I didn't think that they'd be able to do that.

 

[sarumbear]

So some amplifiers can basically go up to 100k with only a 3 db loss? To be honest that's pretty impressive. I didn't think that they'd be able to do that.

The curse of the 20-20,000Hz phrase

 

[HD MOVIE SOURCE]

The curse of the 20-20,000Hz phrase

Yeah, well, I'm surprised that they put this type of noise into the signal. From what I'm seeing in the video though, that noise is actually raised also, which could be really bad.

 

[restorer-john]

Funny that you should quote this as Dr. Doi was my boss at Sony (two levels up)! He would tell me many stories about working with Philips. None positive.

Yep, he wrote the book (literally) on digital audio. (first edition, 1983 English Language translation)

This is one of the early working group (Sony/Philips) meetings where they all put on a smile for the camera:

From oral history- Heitaro Nakajima:

@amirm You really should tell us more about your time with Sony.

 

[restorer-john]

So some amplifiers can basically go up to 100k with only a 3 db loss? To be honest that's pretty impressive. I didn't think that they'd be able to do that.

Most decent amplifiers and preamplifiers go way past that. You need an order (x10) in bandwidth of the highest frequency you want to accurately reproduce to obtain a perfect step response.

I have plenty of power amps with a -3dB response of 200kHz and 300kHz and above. Even power bandwidths (full power less -3dB or half power) out to 100kHz etc

Preamplifiers that go out to 500kHz.

 

[Rottmannash]

It's from 1984. My first rock CD I bought together with my first CD player in 1985. Despite its age one of the best sounding recordings ever made.

It shows that if the engineers know there job and are not hindered by producers perfect digital recordings were possible since the beginning of the age of digital audio.

Edit: I also own the vinyl and its sound is very close to the CD, the vinyl used is excellent and the groove noise is one of the lowest I've heared so far.

Truly stunning recording for its time.

 

[scooter]

Can this be considered as high quality master? I see attenuation starts after 25kHz. The file is 24/96 FLAC, extracted from Blu-ray disk live concert PCM stereo track.
Perhaps it is subjective but I think I've never listened to such a high quality recording, it is so clean and easy to my ears when listening on my heapdhones or home stereo system.
Nice job done here by Pink Floyd sound engineers. If you haven't listened yet, I higly recommend to obtain the remastered version of "Delicate Sound Of Thunder". David Gilmour's 5 minutes solo found in "On The Turning Away", it takes me away to the different universe...

 

[Hayabusa]

Didn't Philips originally think that 14 bits would be enough, and it was Sony who insisted on 16? Please correct me if that's one of the myths I've picked up!

Confirmed:

https://www.philips.com/a-w/research/technologies/cd/beginning.html

 

[Francis Vaughan]

So some amplifiers can basically go up to 100k with only a 3 db loss? To be honest that's pretty impressive. I didn't think that they'd be able to do that.

High frequency extension is a bit of a storied beast. It has an intimate relationship with stability, feedback, and speed of the output devices. Modern output devices are now generally fast enough that this isn't as much of an issue. Given that there is no actual requirement for wider bandwidth than a comfortable margin above 20kHz, anything more is just a by product of the design or deliberate empty bragging rights, or both.
But in any amplifier with negative feedback there is an intimate relationship between final bandwidth, feedback, open loop bandwidth and stability. It is perfectly reasonable and common to avoid a lot of problems by deliberately adding a low pass filter right at the input of an amplifier. There is exactly no downside to doing this. Not unless you need the amplifier to drive something other than an audio device.

 

[Rottmannash]

Can this be considered as high quality master? I see attenuation starts after 25kHz. The file is 24/96 FLAC, extracted from Blu-ray disk live concert PCM stereo track.
Perhaps it is subjective but I think I've never listened to such a high quality recording, it is so clean and easy to my ears when listening on my heapdhones or home stereo system.
Nice job done here by Pink Floyd sound engineers. If you haven't listened yet, I higly recommend to obtain the remastered version of "Delicate Sound Of Thunder". David Gilmour's 5 minutes solo found in "On The Turning Away", it takes me away to the different universe...

View attachment 128781

Is this from the Gdansk live set? Just saw it-the Anthony Moore mix. Truly transcendent.

 

[scooter]

Is this from the Gdansk live set?

No, it's from their "A Momentary Lapse of Reason Tour" from 19 August 1988 to 23 August 1988, New York.
It was on VHS originally and recently released blu-ray version, completely remastered audio/video from original tapes, and I think this is a proper master.
And another chance to see back vocalists Rachel Fury and Durga McBroom in crisp quality

 

[Rottmannash]

No, it's from their "A Momentary Lapse of Reason Tour" from 19 August 1988 to 23 August 1988, New York.
It was on VHS originally and recently released blu-ray version, completely remastered audio/video from original tapes, and I think this is a proper master.
And another chance to see back vocalists Rachel Fury and Durga McBroom in crisp quality

Just edited my post prior to your reply-I did find a version on the "Delicate Sound of Thunder" Remix 2019 version on Qobuz. Where would one find this blu-ray?

 

[scooter]

Just edited my post prior to your reply-I did find a version on the "Delicate Sound of Thunder" Remix 2019 version on Qobuz. Where would one find this blu-ray?

Amazon, Ebay or their official website. I've purchased on Amazon for 27$ or so.
Disk is region free so you can order from any suitable source for you.

 

[Rottmannash]

Amazon, Ebay or their official website. I've purchased on Amazon for 27$ or so.
Disk is region free so you can order from any suitable source for you.

Thanks. Gotta have it.

 

[krabapple]

@amirm Also a nice way of finding weird tones is with the spectrograms of audacity:

View attachment 128598

That's not different than using the spectral view in Audition, as Amir does. You can alter the colors there too if you like.