ifi Zen Phono Review (phono stage)

[Bob from Florida]

Way I read it, they optimiser for inner groves as well, I'd go with "red".

Thor

Which is why I have always used the IEC standard - Red line - and never tried the other 3 radii on the tool.

 

[Bob from Florida]

I think they're just saying "audiophile records" have a larger inner radius, or more ungrooved wax at the end of the side.

Yes I agree. I also have a lot of records that end close to the center.

 

[Smitty2k1]

@amirm this review isn't showing up in the master review index

 

[Nikisixx21]

Curios to hear what others think of my use case as I’m considering this.

Currently I have an old Technics SL23 into a Nad pp2. Then things get sloppy as I am running out of the Nad with 75 foot RCAs from mono price (coax apparently) in my ceiling and converted into 1/4 then into the analog connection of an Adi2 pro. Now if that’s not bad enough the RCA run is right next to a 100amp power line run to a sub panel for 1/2 the distance.

No surprise there is audible main hub on the signal which can also be observed visually on the RME.

To get around this i instead converted the signal out of the Nad to digital with a cheap adc from Amazon. The signal is now spdif coax into the RME and the main hum is gone. Whats not ideal is I’m leveraging a $9 adc instead of the one in the RME.

I’m interested in this ifi because of the balanced connection which I can run directly into the RME but it will still be ram the same route again parallel to the power lines.

Will the balanced connection solve the main hum in this scenario or should I stick with the digital connection?

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

Currently I have an old Technics SL23 into a Nad pp2. Then things get sloppy as I am running out of the Nad with 75 foot RCAs from mono price (coax apparently) in my ceiling and converted into 1/4 then into the analog connection of an Adi2 pro. Now if that’s not bad enough the RCA run is right next to a 100amp power line run to a sub panel for 1/2 the distance.

Just to be obvious, why not place turntable and Phono next to the RME ADI2 Pro and use a short cable kept away from power lines?

Thor

 

[Nikisixx21]

Just to be obvious, why not place turntable and Phono next to the RME ADI2 Pro and use a short cable kept away from power lines?

Thor

fair question. There essentially in 2 different rooms with the TT in an entertainment center so was trying to see what option I had to extend the usage of the TT a bit. The balanced connection and lower cost of the ifi were what interested me.

 

[WDeranged]

@Thorsten Loesch Are there any possible downsides to running my MM cart (VM95ML) in MC High mode? I prefer the extra gain as the volume matches my other components. I also like giving my ADC a strong signal for needledrops.

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

fair question. There essentially in 2 different rooms with the TT in an entertainment center so was trying to see what option I had to extend the usage of the TT a bit. The balanced connection and lower cost of the ifi were what interested me.

Well, a balanced connection will be less sensitive to hum, but less is not non.

As a rule, I would not recommend doing what you are doing at all.

If you can make your own cables, you may be able to make cable / adapter for a impedance balanced out / balanced in for your existing gear.

Cable quality will be paramount here, so no garbage stuff.

My recommendation would be Cat-6e trunk cable.

Use one pair as balanced signal, the other 3pairs as ground (pin1 on xlr).

On the phono stage side, use RCA with a resistor equal to the output impedance of the phono stage for - signal to gnd. This creates the "balanced impedance", which is the key "secret" to noise suppression in balanced circuits.

Pin 1 also connects to ground.

This will work better than any generic commercial balanced cable and should eliminate hum, IF the RME ADI 2Pro input has sufficient CMRR.

Thor

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

@Thorsten Loesch Are there any possible downsides to running my MM cart (VM95ML) in MC High mode? I prefer the extra gain as the volume matches my other components. I also like giving my ADC a strong signal for needledrops.

No problem, there is plenty of overload margin remaining.

The reverse is also ok, using MM with a high output MC cartridge that is too hot for the MC High mode.

Thor

 

[Baudrillard_J]

I own two iFi products, the Neo idsd dac and based on my positive experience with it an iFi zen phono. I can report that there is literally zero perceivable noise with this preamp which is also properly grounded. I have only used the MM input thus far. Regarding aesthetics of the box, I like the retro look and prefer the curves to the straight lines. Of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So anyway, even at $199 it still is a well-thought and well-engineered product and because of it I can now freely experiment with other MC cartridges.
Mr. Loesch if I may ask, did you assist with the Neo idsd design as well? If so, do you know if the latest update that adds the GTO filter also fixes the other issues mentioned with the firmware?

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

Mr. Loesch if I may ask, did you assist with the Neo idsd design as well?

The Zen series, NEO and the recent protables (Blu/Go) were the last products I worked on. The NEO reached late prototype status before I left. So it is largely my design in terms of electronics etc., but final software was created without me.

If so, do you know if the latest update that adds the GTO filter also fixes the other issues mentioned with the firmware?

I have no idea. I do not have a NEO at hand to I cannot test. A major issue I think is that the Chinese Programmers at iFi have no real understanding of "HiFi", neither, TBH do the electronic engineers. Pre-production testing of products, which should catch problems was also a problem.

On request I produced a ~ 50 page test principle documents that should have been adapted to each individual product, to avoid only having me available to perform tests and I was told "There is no way to implement this", yet it was merely formalising what I would do without thin king based on experience.

Without necessary oversight the programmers tended to create ergonomically quirky software with fundamental functional flaws that are not picked up in pre-production testing by Chinese Engineers who do not understand how the product should work and what result to expect from a given feature.

This was always a problem and a few products suffered badly after I had been taken off the development process before shipping final products. It was always a struggle to ensure products worked as they should. I suspect nowadays this affects all products ifi makes.

Thor

 

[Baudrillard_J]

Thank you for your reply. It is unfortunate that well-designed hardware is then botched by questionable programming and shody quality control. I, as a buyer and end user have to wonder if there is a way identify these issues in a public way and force the company to correct the firmware for all. To guarantee proper operation. I wonder what AMR has to say about this, or are they just licensing the technology and ifi is an independent entity.

On a similar note, I have the habit of leaving my electronics constantly on (except tube-amps). After about 11 months the Neo display received a permanent burn-in from being constantly on. I regretted sending that unit back for a replacement as when I received the replacement (newer unit) I initially thought it didn’t sound as good as before. I discarded that idea as ridiculous but with the differences in firmware I am now wondering if that has actually been the case. I now use the “display off” setting to avoid burn-in. I wonder if that also takes care of the interference issues from the display mentioned elsewhere although I never had an issue with noise, hum or interference of any sort, at audible levels, with the standard power supply.

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

I, as a buyer and end user have to wonder if there is a way identify these issues in a public way

Watch early discussions of a device.

Reviews may not run into problems, or they may report them to the manufacturer and be told "sure we will fix it" and not mention it assuming by the time paying customers get the device the problems are fixed. I think reviewers should mention problems in their reviews and report the company's response, so things are out in the open. It becomes more difficult later to do so if it turns out that Bug the reviewer found remained in shipping version of the product.

This is not a problem only for iFi.

We have seen products made in china and engineered in china shipped by many major brands with major or fatal flaws in design or firmware. And they are not always fixed. Or fixed in ways that are not good.

I had a major brand Phone where the Camera overhated rapidly at the highest quality, even in photo mode, causing the camera to shut off. The fix was to reduce the default settings to a safe level and display a warning textbox if you tried to raise the quality to that advertised.

Just recently my WIIM mini bricked after a firmware upgrade and a power cycle after it first worked a whole day after the firmware upgrade. Both were basically "Chinese" products, made in china, design in china, firmware in china.

I would suggest that the real solution is to reshore design and production into countries with a suitable workforce, like Germany, USA, UK, France, Italy etc., but that will likely double to quadruple prices.

and force the company to correct the firmware for all.

Companies that are for the core company registered in a tax haven that has minimal consumer protection legislation in country and non for foreign customers can only be pressured by widespread public customer complaints, that if not addressed will damage their business standing in the market and thus negatively impact their sales.

I have sat in board discussion where the potential damage to sales of not fixing problem as priority, not doing a product recall and even completely ignoring problems was estimated and the "business people" generally went with "not enough damage, don't spend time fixing, keep shipping, focus on new products".

I wonder what AMR has to say about this, or are they just licensing the technology and ifi is an independent entity.

Nothing, AMR & iFi are now both parts of same the holding company located in china (HK). All the connections and corporate entities, all the way to mainland china are traceable.

On a similar note, I have the habit of leaving my electronics constantly on (except tube-amps). After about 11 months the Neo display received a permanent burn-in from being constantly on.

Yes, I have been fighting against OLED screens a long time and was overrules.

I regretted sending that unit back for a replacement as when I received the replacement (newer unit) I initially thought it didn’t sound as good as before. I discarded that idea as ridiculous but with the differences in firmware I am now wondering if that has actually been the case.

I suspect it may have been case.

As iFi is a relatively small manufacturer they cannot always get parts through the official channels. I am ware of fake capacitors, wrong capacitor values and even fake Op-Amp's having made it into production. I was under the impression that these were corrected before shipment. But in at least one case I got a unit at a show that sounded different to my own sample, which I eventually traced down to a manufacturing part change that should not have been made.

Again, this sort of thing happens a lot in china. To a chinese "engineer" if the same thing is written on the packaging it is the same. Fakes abound. And make it past QA/QC. And not just with iFi. In fact, iFi probably still has better save guards in place than most, though not as good as I would have liked.

I had instituted a process of validating all suspect parts on incoming inspection, this was eventually axed as too expensive and the principle "this is a trustworthy supplier" we accept the parts without checks and assume they are good and we only deal with such suppliers. Afterwards when fake parts turned up anyway, they did not force any change in approach to QA.

I now use the “display off” setting to avoid burn-in. I wonder if that also takes care of the interference issues from the display mentioned elsewhere

OLED and similar displays use "Multiplexing", which causes interference that is hard to control and eliminate, as we deal with high currents being switched in the most audible range of human hearing.

Turning an OLED or similar display off completely often significantly lowers interference. I always recommend "Display off" and have insisted that unless displays use "on/off" LED's only they must have an off-position.

although I never had an issue with noise, hum or interference of any sort, at audible levels, with the standard power supply.

Just because a form of interference or sound quality impairment is not directly audible, it is not safe to conclude it has no audible effects.

Thor

 

[morillon]

sad fact....

 

[Baudrillard_J]

Agreed. I don’t want to draw the discussion on about Chinese engineering but it is as you say it, from personal experience in another engineering field. And yet, here we are. The Chinese have perfected the theory of “substitute products” and are driving everything else out of the market (If I wanted to throw a tongue-in-cheek here I would add “substitute products that measure well”). Hasn’t happened yet but niche and ultra-expensive products will not save the game and the trend is clear. Bringing back production will as you correctly point out drive prices up but that should be subsidized by the western governments until demand stabilizes and production increases to support lower prices. And we cannot escape the fact that in order to properly ground the discussion we have to discuss the connection between morality and quality. And now we indeed have a serious measuring problem in our hands. I hope what I just said will be taken with a grain of salt as it is my attempt to be funny in a technical forum.

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

And yet, here we are. The Chinese have perfected the theory of “substitute products” and are driving everything else out of the market

Indeed. Sadly so.

In the end we need to blame ourselves. The Chinese are only delivering what we in the west want to buy. When price "Trump's" (tongue in cheek) quality, then cheap garbage floods the market.

And we get a corollary to Gresham's Law (Bad money drives out good money) as:

"Cheap bad products drive out fairly priced good products!"

Bringing back production will as you correctly point out drive prices up

I think this will happen now anyway. China is getting expensive. We now get "super cheap chinese brands" trying to sell premium priced products and despite the same quality issues as their low priced stuff, they sell simply because there are no alternatives. But the prices are getting to territory where European and US makers can be competitive again.

The chinese economic model is fatering as well.

And we cannot escape the fact that in order to properly ground the discussion we have to discuss the connection between morality and quality.

I have always held the belief that a Manufacturer should make a quality product, that suits the customer and will be something to be enjoyed long term. Thus it should be durable and of a high quality, a greater quality than strictly necessary to make the sale.

Like take a Mercedes "Smiling Benz":

Many, with some maintenance made it many times around the world, aged well over the decades and if you have a good example, you can still drive it, very enjoyable.

Of course, such quality has a cost and a maker does have to make profit, not outrageous, but enough to make the effort to make a good product worthwhile.

That is how capitalism should work. We now encounter a system where the capitalist market has been distorted by non-capitalist, non-market (traditional) forces, by (among other means) currency manipulation and other means.

And now we indeed have a serious measuring problem in our hands. I hope what I just said will be taken with a grain of salt as it is my attempt to be funny in a technical forum.

Yes, it is a problem and one that can be measured and can directly be related to customer satisfaction.

Thor

 

[Baudrillard_J]

Those were the times for automobiles. Not to mention the air-cooled Porsches. Now the future, as it is being laid out in front of us, includes Teslas reporting our driving habits in real-time for insurance purposes. An over-the-air update can brick your car. And yet this is considered progress.

Back to the iFi zen phono, I took your advice here Mr. Loesch and procured a DL-103 for a direct-drive turntable with a non-rigid arm (Technics SL-1200GR). Weight of Ortofon Club mkII it was replacing, 18gr. Weight of Technics headshell + DL-103, 18gr. Literally took out one and connected the other and changed the iFI to low-output MC. Superb. The DL-103 came with a serial number and a graph of the frequency response when tested before leaving the factory. Talk about quality control.

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

Back to the iFi zen phono, I took your advice here Mr. Loesch and procured a DL-103 for a direct-drive turntable with a non-rigid arm (Technics SL-1200GR). Weight of Ortofon Club mkII it was replacing, 18gr. Weight of Technics headshell + DL-103, 18gr. Literally took out one and connected the other and changed the iFI to low-output MC. Superb. The DL-103 came with a serial number and a graph of the frequency response when tested before leaving the factory. Talk about quality control.

Yes, DL-103 is a relict of times bygone. They (literally) don't make em like this anymore, except Denon.

It's actually a leftover of the age of the smiling Benz.

If you have the chance, look at the caltilever and diamond in a microscope and look at the quality of the work.

Thor

 

[mike70]

I've been in the fence about the 103 for the following reasons:

- conical stylus
Lifespan (retip is expensive, so with a conical stylus the price / hour is greater)
IGD (not the best stylus for the last tracks)
- compliance
I think it doesn't go well with a medium mass tonearm, unless you use a heavy headshell and an auxiliary counterweight with more mass ... complicated.

 

[Baudrillard_J]

If you have the chance, look at the caltilever and diamond in a microscope and look at the quality of the work.

I actually did take a peak and you’re right, the craftmanship is amazing even at twice the price. I will try to get some pictures up later if I find some time.

I think it doesn't go well with a medium mass tonearm, unless you use a heavy headshell and an auxiliary counterweight with more mass ... complicated.

I am not sure how this theory came about and if it is true. The Ortofon Club mkII which is specifically designed for this type of arms comes in at 18.5gr (the cartridge is the headshell too). This is how much I found the [headshell + DL-103 + tightening screws] to be after weighing. I think most confusions arise from the fact that Denon reports compliance at 100 Hz to be 5 x 10-6 cm/dyne. At 10Hz this is more like 12 x 10-6 cm/dyne.