ifi Zen Phono Review (phono stage)

[AaronJ]

what you said don´t surprise me ... a better contact stylus going deeper in the groove will get more noise if the record is dirty or already damaged with the dirt.
i mean, it is totally natural and not because the DL103 is "better".
you can try a cheap AT VM95C (conical) and check what happens with noise compared to the shure.

Ha that’s actually what I did. I have a VM95C that I used to test the theory and got the DL-103 after some positive results.

 

[mike70]

Ha that’s actually what I did. I have a VM95C that I used to test the theory and got the DL-103 after some positive results.

well, i checked out the size in the stylus ... and the DL103 have a .5 mil and the AT .6 mil

so ... the AT it is the worst

 

[Baudrillard_J]

well, i checked out the size in the stylus ... and the DL103 have a .5 mil and the AT .6 mil

Are you sure about the DL-103 stylus size? MusicDirect reports it as 16.5 micron (0.649 mil).

 

[mike70]

Are you sure about the DL-103 stylus size? MusicDirect reports it as 16.5 micron (0.649 mil).

https://www.stereophile.com/content/denon-dl-103-phono-cartridge

this is an article on the original DL103 (not "R" nor everything else) from Gordon Holt in 1975.
i saw the "improved" version R with 0.6 ... but is what i finded on the internet .. it doesn't mean the ultimate truth.

 

[Bob from Florida]

But ... even you cut the groove thinking about a conical stylus ... if you have a "better contact" stylus ... it must be better anyway.

I understand that conical wouldn't be bad because the groove is "treated" for that ... but one thing isn't opposed to the other.

I have a 103 - although not currently in use - and it plays quite well. Best bass out of all my cartridges. The highly polished diamond helps its life - reported to average 1000 hours. Setup is way easier with the spherical shape as VTA is practically irrelevant. The average person has a much better chance of getting setup right versus a more exotic profile. The Hana SL currently in use requires more care in setup to get it to perform. I can easily level the arm between thick and thin records with my VTA lifter in seconds to keep the VTA correct with advanced profiles. With the 103 you don't really need to be that concerned. Everything has a place and when you think about how archaic records are, we are fortunate to have choices such as different cartridges and styli available.

 

[mike70]

I have a 103 - although not currently in use - and it plays quite well. Best bass out of all my cartridges. The highly polished diamond helps its life - reported to average 1000 hours. Setup is way easier with the spherical shape as VTA is practically irrelevant. The average person has a much better chance of getting setup right versus a more exotic profile. The Hana SL currently in use requires more care in setup to get it to perform. I can easily level the arm between thick and thin records with my VTA lifter in seconds to keep the VTA correct with advanced profiles. With the 103 you don't really need to be that concerned. Everything has a place and when you think about how archaic records are, we are fortunate to have choices such as different cartridges and styli available.

yes, we're always talking about "right setups" ... in other way is like using a Ferrari only in 2nd gear

surprises me the 1k hours lifespan ... 2,5 grams in 2 points is really a huge pressure on the diamond tip, i don't know, really suspicious. Then, my AT PTG/II will work forever

 

[AaronJ]

I think the idea of lower hours stylus life span was created by dealers, not by manufacturers. I liken it to auto repair shops who still slap a sticker on your car reminding you to come back after 3000 miles for your next oil change.

 

[Baudrillard_J]

What I did pick up yesterday with the iFi zen in MC-low however is RF interference in the form of garbled voices talking to each other. Pretty surprising if it happens while you just dropped the needle on DSOTM and definitely a first for me.

Sounded like people talking on the walkie-talkie but garbled. I think I need to get more shielded rca cables.

Has anyone actually determined if shielded digital coax 75ohm terminated in rca is a good candidate for line-level interconnects?

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

What I did pick up yesterday with the iFi zen in MC-low however is RF interference in the form of garbled voices talking to each other.

The input stage is designed to be pretty RFI resistant. But there is a lot of gain. Probably you else getting CB or if you are near military training grounds or installations military traffic. Air traffic control might also be an option, as could be CIA Psy-Ops and demonic/satanic possession.

Does your system have a solid earth connection?

Make sure the turntable ground is connected to the Zen Phono chassis and take a reasonably heavy gauge wire from the Zen Phono Chassis ground to the chassis of the amplifier, presuming the Amplifier uses an earthed mains connection.

Alternativly take a mains plug, remove the pins connecting to the mains power (so only the earth connection remains) and use that to make a earth connection, using 100 Ohm Resistor + 100nF Capacitor between earth and the wire you pass on to connect to the Zen Phono.

Thor

 

[Baudrillard_J]

The input stage is designed to be pretty RFI resistant. But there is a lot of gain. Probably you else getting CB or if you are near military…

Unfortunately it is much more plain than that. I just found out my neighbour had a crew working on his attic/roof and they were using walkie/talkies.

But allow me to restate here to avoid confusion to the reader. I have proper grounding. Because of that, there is no mains hum from the Zen phono. It has a nice black background. The sensitive pick-up picked up a nearby RF transmission, it happens.

 

[Baudrillard_J]

Alternativly take a mains plug, remove the pins connecting to the mains power (so only the earth connection remains) and use that to make a earth connection, using 100 Ohm Resistor + 100nF Capacitor between earth and the wire you pass on to connect to the Zen Phono.

Thank you for suggesting that, I will definitely keep it in mind. When you say “between earth and the wire you pass on to connect to the Zen Phono” are you referring to the single turntable ground wire (turntable ground to Zen phono ground)?

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

Thank you for suggesting that, I will definitely keep it in mind. When you say “between earth and the wire you pass on to connect to the Zen Phono” are you referring to the single turntable ground wire (turntable ground to Zen phono ground)?

Let's be clear what we try to achieve.

That is a solid earth connection on the Phono stage chassis, without relying on the interconnect cables to carry the earth, possibly from Poweramp to linestage to Phono.

The turntable ground gets connected to the normal ground screw on the case. To be precise, it is connected to the case, not directly to ground.

From the same ground screw we then connect a decent wire (I like to use the shield from RG-58/59 Coax) to a source of "earth".

One such source could be an earthed piece of equipment (cable shoe under chassis screw) another a modified (for safety reasons) mains plug with earth only connection.

Instead of a direct connection, I prefer to use a "soft" connection, using a parallel resistor & capacitor.

If I had a complex enough system (I don't) I would probably make a small metal box, put in a lot of isolated 4mm binding posts each with 100R 1W in parallel with 100nF 63V to a common "star ground" input post, bring the earth in from a modified mains plug to the input post and run one "Earth Strap" to each chassis.

This creates a star earth for RF for every device in the system. I had something similar way back when I had a hugely complex system with a mix of earthed and isolated gear in London, where the RF smog is heavy. It helped a lot. Not just no ghost voices, but overall better sound.

Thor

 

[WDeranged]

I ran a dedicated earth cable from my Zen to the ground on my mains supply. The hum reduction was enormous.

 

[Baudrillard_J]

This creates a star earth for RF for every device in the system. I had something similar way back when I had a hugely complex system with a mix of earthed and isolated gear in London, where the RF smog is heavy. It helped a lot. Not just no ghost voices, but overall better sound.

Thank you for taking the time to explain the process step-by-step. I think it is a good idea, it definitely won’t hurt having a “proper” ground in my system.

I ran a dedicated earth cable from my Zen to the ground on my mains supply. The hum reduction was enormous.

Thank you too for chimming in your impressions from trying it out. I will give it a go. I have a confession to make, I am obsessed with proper grounding so this fits right in.

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

I have a confession to make, I am obsessed with proper grounding so this fits right in.

Some key issues are that many agency requirements manufacturers need to meet (electrical safety, electromagnetic compatibility, mains harmonic limits, standby power limitations etc.) need measures that, if following "common practice", can create major audio problems.

As with any problem, once recognised mitigation is possible. Especially in SE systems (but not exclusively so - Google "Pin 1 problem") trying to add formal earth management system for chassis can work as a strong mitigating factor, as said, the more complex the system the more the potential benefit.

IF (big IF) making your own cables, using Cat6e (ideally shotgunned trunk cable with copper conductors) is great. You get 4 pairs with individual foil shields and an overall shield.

Use one pair as "signal" for balanced (pin 2/3 on XLR or TR for TRS 1/4") or a single conductor of a single pair for signal in RCA. If using Pentaconn (4.4mm TRRRS), use two pairs as signal.

Use all remaining pairs as "ground" (pin 1 on XLR or S on TRS 1/4" & 4.4mm TRRRS).

Connect the shield isolated from pin 1 to the XLR Shell (ideally also modify XLR connections inside gear to have ground and shell separated and the shell = chassis/earth).

For non-XLR connection (RCA, 1/4" TRS & 4.4mm TRRRS) isolate the shield and bring them out on flexible tails with a cable shoe, so they can be used to connect to a chassis screw.

Doing so separates circulating chassis currents and acts as more or less seamless RF shield, minimises the impedance of the ground connection (and thus the ability of the cable ground connection to convert circulating chassis currents into a voltage that appears as input signal for following gear).

Adding a Easth management system to such interconnect cables adds another layer of defense against noise, EMI etc.

And yes, there are very expensive cables like this and expensive "ground/earth" management systems. I do not feel the expenses are justified, HOWEVER the underlying principles are "sound" (pun intended). Note these are not "magic cables", but instead "scientifically grounded" (pun intended) Cables.

Implementing them DIY is inexpensive and effective and a good way maximising ones investment in gear.

Thor

 

[Baudrillard_J]

And yes, there are very expensive cables like this and expensive "ground/earth" management systems. I do not feel the expenses are justified, HOWEVER the underlying principles are "sound" (pun intended). Note these are not "magic cables", but instead "scientifically grounded" (pun intended) Cables.

Implementing them DIY is inexpensive and effective and a good way maximising ones investment in gear.

I think I speak for most here in thanking you for providing your invaluable expertise. And yes there are expensive (or less expensive systems to manage ground/earth) and they are great to have. But it is also nice to know the reason they work. And for those who are looking for a small project to work on that will also have an improvement on their system this fits right in.

 

[antanast]

I have an MM cartridge but setting it to Gain +2 (MC High) everything seems to sound better (and louder). Does this mean that because I am using an MM cartridge I should only use the Gain +1 (MM)?

 

[AaronJ]

I have an MM cartridge but setting it to Gain +2 (MC High) everything seems to sound better (and louder). Does this mean that because I am using an MM cartridge I should only use the Gain +1 (MM)?

Louder does sound better but if level matched it will sound the same as lower gain settings. I’d keep the gain as low as you need to reach the volume you want.

 

[antanast]

Louder does sound better but if level matched it will sound the same as lower gain settings. I’d keep the gain as low as you need to reach the volume you want.

Got it thanks. However I think it sounds richer in gain +2. Why do they list it though as only meant for "MC High"?

 

[AaronJ]

It's meant for a low output MC cart, something like 0.2mV to 0.5mV, whereas a MM cart will be in the range of 2mV to 5mV. A typical MM gain of 40db using a MM cart will usually give you enough voltage to reach uncomfortable listening levels on most amplifiers, so there is little reason to run so much additional gain. If you like what you hear then you don't have to change it, although the phono stage may reach clipping point trying to output so much voltage. Plenty phono stages would clip running a MM cart with MC gain. I think the differences you hear are almost entirely due to the huge change in volume rather than the phono stage doing anything else different with the high gain.