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Ideas for more meaningful speaker measurements

sigbergaudio

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Maybe but suggest it really depends on who the "People" are. ;)

Sure, so it's perhaps a matter of different information to different audience. :) Like we share a lot of information through our development threads, but we don't dump all those measurements onto our product pages on the website.
 
D

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Am not in favor of dumbing down for the lowest common denominator but can see why the manufacturers seem to go there. IMO, it should not be an excuse to not have some way for more technical folk to get more detailed information. :confused:

I think the trick here is to read your audience... The average person looking for a good deal on speakers isn't going to pour over complex, zoomed in grapsh. They would be practically meaningless to him or her. The "loudness graph" in my second example is simple, easily read and highly indicative of what can be expected in-use.

It's not denying a person information ... it is giving them the information that is most useful to them.
 
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Rick Sykora

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I think the trick here is to read your audience... The average person looking for a good deal on speakers isn't going to pour over complex, zoomed in grapsh. They would be practically meaningless to him or her. The "loudness graph" in my second example is simple, easily read and highly indicative of what can be expected in-use.

It's not denying a person information ... it is giving them the information that is most useful to them.

Yes, many will simply listen and determine whether they like or not.

A loudness graph might be progress for others. Am just not convinced that a frequency response plot with a +/- 25 dB graph is more helpful. If a manufacturer quotes +/- 3 dB and then publishes graphs with +/- 25 dB, just seems intentionally misleading to me.

In a speaker DBT, it would not be acceptable to not level match the speakers. Agree that we are less likely to hear 1 dB diff in real content, but when we get to 3 dB or more, we certainly hear loudness diffs. Why our visual representations should not be comparably scaled seems to defy logic to me. :(
 
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Yes, many will simply listen and determine whether they like or not.

The loudness graph is becoming a necessity as more and more brick and mortar stores are closing up or not providing demo space.

A loudness graph might be progress for others. Am just not convinced that a frequency response plot with a +/- 25 dB graph is more helpful. If a manufacturer quotes +/- 3 dB and then publishes graphs with +/- 25 dB, just seems intentionally misleading to me.

For a person with technical insight it is exactly that ... for the average customer, it's something they can grasp.

In a speaker DBT, it would not be acceptable to not level match the speakers. Agree that we are less likely to hear 1 dB diff in real content, but when we get to 3 dB or more, we certainly hear loudness diffs. Why our visual representations should not be comparably scaled seems to defy logic to me. :(

Take the test tones I linked in an earlier comment ... play two different tones... turn your balance control to one side or the other... how long before you can tell the difference in loudness. This is what I was trying to explain before ... yes we can hear a stepped change of 1 or 2 db in a steady tone. But when comparing the loudness of two different tones we are no where nearly so accurate... I've run tests in which I and friends were largely unable to hear differences of even 6 or 8 db between two separate tones, depending on the tones used and the overall volume setting.

My point is that most people, including myself, are not going to bullseye a 3db error in frequency response during a listening session... In fact most people don't even notice when you turn the treble controls up and down... The level of detail they need is completely different from the ones we're accustomed to as technicians and engineers.
 
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Rick Sykora

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The loudness graph is becoming a necessity as more and more brick and mortar stores are closing up or not providing demo space.



For a person with technical insight it is exactly that ... for the average customer, it's something they can grasp.



Take the test tones I linked in an earlier comment ... play two different tones... turn your balance control to one side or the other... how long before you can tell the difference in loudness. This is what I was trying to explain before ... yes we can hear a stepped change of 1 or 2 db in a steady tone. But when comparing the loudness of two different tones we are no where nearly so accurate... I've run tests in which I and friends were largely unable to hear differences of even 6 or 8 db between two separate tones, depending on the tones used and the overall volume setting.

My point is that most people, including myself, are not going to bullseye a 3db error in frequency response during a listening session... In fact most people don't even notice when you turn the treble controls up and down... The level of detail they need is completely different from the ones we're accustomed to as technicians and engineers.

Thanks for sharing your insights. I have experienced what you suggest, but just not in a very controlled way and still would be a sample of one. So there is the question of whether you can trust your own hearing (as being representative of a larger population)! As I do speaker design work within a team, am often confronted by whether something is audible or not (and maybe for one person and not another). So, acknowledge there is also going to be some differences between individuals.

Agree there is a need for measurements to become more of proxy for the listening experience. I think some progress is being made, but it is still early. However, while this evolves, still think we can encourage manufacturers to supply enthusiasts with more useful information. So, like the constructive conversation. Thanks again!
 
D

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Agree there is a need for measurements to become more of proxy for the listening experience. I think some progress is being made, but it is still early. However, while this evolves, still think we can encourage manufacturers to supply enthusiasts with more useful information. So, like the constructive conversation. Thanks again!

My pleasure ... to put a sharp point on it ...

We're soon not going to be able to audition speakers and if the trend continues ... at all. The key need is then to provide information that consumers can actually use... Not to bland... but not too technical.

When I've done setup work, I often zoom way in to find room nodes... my clients will then become confused "Are those MY speakers?" and then when I zoom back out to show them the loudness graph, the sense of relief is palpable ... so we do need to 'read our audience'.

Thanks for an interesting discussion.
 

F1308

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I don't go buying loudspeakers without having listened for a while.
My first system (2.1 by VIETA, VIrtuosismo En alTA fidelidad) was acquired among some ten others on offer because it sounded terrific.
Cotton made woofers against many others very much expensive, specially one by Sony that was receiving high ratings as the latest development of the time as it had aluminium woofers that really sounded truly metallic whatever the content being played. Let's assume it achieved 8-45000 Hz +/-0.01 dB, would you buy it ?
 
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I don't go buying loudspeakers without having listened for a while.
My first system (2.1 by VIETA, VIrtuosismo En alTA fidelidad) was acquired among some ten others on offer because it sounded terrific.
Cotton made woofers against many others very much expensive, specially one by Sony that was receiving high ratings as the latest development of the time as it had aluminium woofers that really sounded truly metallic whatever the content being played. Let's assume it achieved 8-45000 Hz +/-0.01 dB, would you buy it ?

First I would have to believe it.
 

F1308

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First I would have to believe it.
No need.
What I meant is that such a great response curve will not provide a single clue about the quality of the reproduction, castanets not sounding woody.
 
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No need.
What I meant is that such a great response curve will not provide a single clue about the quality of the reproduction, castanets not sounding woody.

Frequency response is only one measurement ... it depicts the relative loudness of the varying frequencies in the audio spectrum.
Others such as Impulse Response, Decay time and Distortion are also needed to make a reasonable assessment.
 

F1308

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Frequency response is only one measurement ... it depicts the relative loudness of the varying frequencies in the audio spectrum.
Others such as Impulse Response, Decay time and Distortion are also needed to make a reasonable assessment.
Yes, I am sure you understand my statement.
Still all those curves you added will not say anything about the castanets...or the metal rods.
:):):):)
 
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