Delicate higher harmonic frequencies vs wire Gauge no measurements on this subject...

[boxerfan88]

So what I`m hearing is when I use 24 gauge pure copper speaker wire it appears there are more higher end harmonic frequencies.

When using 18 gauge pure copper speaker wire it appears those higher end harmonic frequencies are less but there are much more lower harmonic frequencies.

This is not a simple one time one song affair that brought me to this experience...

So what I stumbled across was using 24 gauge wire and 18 gauge wire both connected to the posts on the amp and speakers now it appears to me after much critical listening of a variety of only about 5 songs to ensure higher harmonic and lower harmonic frequencies are all brought to the equation is that all are present.

My suggestion is to look at it another way, instead of skin effect & more HF, it might be AWG 24 is thinner and may contribute to a little less LF. After switching to thicker AWG18, lower resistance per foot, better LF. It’s just another way of looking at it.

Typically for short runs, the difference would be too small to hear.

 

[boxerfan88]

Trivially easy these days. Record the signal at the speakers using two different wires, making sure levels are matched. Then ABX the recordings. DeltaWave software is your friend.

Ah yes! Thank you!

 

[Speedskater]

Trivially easy these days. Record the signal at the speakers using two different wires, making sure levels are matched. Then ABX the recordings. DeltaWave software is your friend.

There will be many overlooked uncontrolled variables to mess that test up.

 

[EERecordist]

Hello, OP
Have you considered purchasing an inexpensive measurement microphone and using it RoomEQ Wizard software? It can sort interconnect questions.

 

[Short38]

Too many variables to begin to sort. Amp to binding post. Binding post to a speaker cable with an amp end connector which is soldered or crimped th a banana plug or other termiination. Speaker cable from amplifier to a speaker end binding post with a banana plug or other connector to a crossover with a little wire to driver connector wire which is very small. Along the way many solder connections and different materials. The whole chain is a miracle. My brain is too small for this discussion.

 

[DonH56]

Smaller wire (higher AWG number) is higher in resistance so is more likely to attenuate the sound. Assuming the effect is real, I suspect what is happening is that the 24 AWG wire is actually attenuating the lower frequencies more since most conventional speakers have impedance dips down low and low frequencies require more power so wire resistance is more an issue. That means less lower midrange and bass so the highs are over-emphasized and sound louder. Switching to larger (lower AWG number) wire with lower resistance allows more bass which in turns leads to the perception of reduced HF content.

ABX as @SIY suggested is not too hard. Place the microphone near a speaker (say 1 m) and record using one cable, then swap and repeat without moving the mic, making sure you stay away from the speaker and nothing else changes. I would not correct the volume as the change is likely small and could be compensated in the SW (will DeltaWave do that?)

 

[bmc0]

I suspect what is happening is that the 24 AWG wire is actually attenuating the lower frequencies more [...]

Plausible, of course, when comparing 24AWG to 18AWG. However, the OP goes on to claim that connecting the two in parallel sounds significantly different than just the 18AWG.

 

[DVDdoug]

!! How in the world is one gonna do ABX testing at home

AB testing using some sort of speaker cable switcher … maybe… but will already be quite challenging to pull off by oneself at home …

By yourself, yes, but if someone else is doing the switching it's no more "challenging" than A/B. It is time consuming because it has to be statistically repeatable-reliable, and you have to be careful that the person doing the switching isn't giving you any cues-clues. It's probably best that you're out of the room when the other person is switching (or "pretending" to switch).

 

[KSTR]

The first thing I'd do is record the voltage at the speaker terminals (speaker end, of course) for all three cases and do a compare with that, using DeltaWave.
Would need a soundcard with balanced inputs and the soundcard being the playback device for sample-synced record-while-playback. And don't fry the inputs (also, I wouldn't use class-D amps for this ;-)

This would expose both the expected linear differences (level and frequency response changes induced by source=amp+cable impedance loaded by non-flat speaker impedance) as well as any additional distortion (since the speaker load is non-linear a changed source impedance will already result in different distortion even with the cable+amp being totally distortion free).

In certain frequency ranges the ear can be very sensitive to small frequency response and level changes, as small as 0.1dB (which is a ~1% change, that is, not really microscopic). This is what I would expect to be the dominant mechanism here (assumed that perceived differences stand in ABX).

For ABX listening tests, I'd again start with using those recordings rather than microphone recordings.

 

[DonH56]

10 feet of 24 AWG is 0.5134 ohms; 18 AWG is 0.1277 ohms (for two wires, plus and minus)*. That is a significant difference, natch, though audibility also depends upon speaker impedance variation. Into 8 ohms, the loss for 18 AWG is about 0.14 dB and about 0.54 dB for 24 AWG, a difference of 0.4 dB. That should be readily detectable in an AB(X) test, but may or may not be obvious in a listening test given the time to swap cables, and of course the amplifier's output impedance will also reduce the difference a bit (fairly minor for a SS amp; damping factor of 100 yields 0.080 ohms output impedance).

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

 

[unpluggged]

To the mods:

Please close this thread and prohibit the OP from creating new threads here. They are here just to systematically promote falsehoods.

 

[Miley_B]

the loss for 24 AWG is about 0.14 dB

This is meant to say “18 AWG is about 0.14 dB”?

 

[KSTR]

To the mods:

Please close this thread and prohibit the OP from creating new threads here. They are here just to systematically promote falsehoods.

I'd say it rather is YOU who should think about your attitude?
The OP, @Earwax, has posted legitimate questions about an observation he made in a calm and kind way. He is clearly not not trolling or promoting falsehoods.
This also applies to other threads he opened.

Your post has been reported.

 

[antcollinet]

Gosh!! How in the world is one gonna do ABX testing at home

AB testing using some sort of speaker cable switcher … maybe… but will already be quite challenging to pull off by oneself at home …

You can do ABX with just a 3 position switch. Though you do need someone to do the switching for you. You can even do it just with plugging and unplugging cables but you lose the instant switching, it becomes massively inconvenient, and prone to error. I wouldn't bother with that way.

And it is not that difficult - with cables for example, level matching is not required.
EDIT : Perhaps as per @DonH56's post above, it probably is required, which makes both AB and ABX testing more difficult - unless using the delta-wave method mentioned by @SIY

 

[pma]

10 feet of 24 AWG is 0.5134 ohms; 18 AWG is 0.1277 ohms (for two wires, plus and minus)*. That is a significant difference

Yeah, such difference will modulate resulting frequency response depending on complex impedance of the speaker.

Measurements of speaker cables in frequency and time domain

Measurements of 6m zip-cord speaker cable in frequency and time domain A controversial theme and I would like to contribute with facts only. I have made measurements on my 6m 2x4mm2 speaker cable and wanted to show the effect of the cable in isolation, however with the cable connected in the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

But this is not in line with general ASR thinking

 

[antcollinet]

To the mods:

Please close this thread and prohibit the OP from creating new threads here. They are here just to systematically promote falsehoods.

Let's be a little nicer, especially to newcomers

Hello you all. While I consider our forum to be more friendly than many, it seems that we are quite harsh on new members who post things that go against our consensus view. There is no reason to pound on people hard when they say this and that sounds good to them. Let them have some time here...

www.audiosciencereview.com

In particular...

Please lets give new members the benefit of the doubt until they *actually* start trolling. Espousing incorrect opinions or information is not that

 

[boxerfan88]

Resistance will impact low and high frequencies equally. It doesn't change frequency response.

Yes, you are absolutely correct if and only if impedance is exactly the same at all frequencies.

Welcome to the real world

 

[Talisman]

Resistance will impact low and high frequencies equally. It doesn't change frequency response.

True, but the impedance curve of a speaker, unless it is electrostatic, is not a flat curve, the same load variation where the speaker has 2.7 ohms or where it has 15 can change the frequency response.

 

[Miley_B]

I was surprised by the relatively high resistances that @DonH56 calculated. Not hailing from America I had to put AWG into the translator and convert it to English. 24 AWG is microphone cable territory.
Whilst not immediately addressing the OP questions I would suggest forgoing ABX testing for now and just get a sensibly priced length of thicker copper wire, if still curious after that then ABX or electrical testing etc. would be the way to go.

 

[voodooless]

Resistance will impact low and high frequencies equally. It doesn't change frequency response.

Yes it does. It changes the Q of the low frequency response. You could actually end up with more bass extension due to this in some situations with a smaller diameter cable.