Delicate higher harmonic frequencies vs wire Gauge no measurements on this subject...

[JeremyFife]

This is the value of ASR for me: I've gone from "must spend 10% of system value on cables" to "of course cables make no difference".
Now there's a more nuanced view that there are measurable differences and sometimes they matter.
I'm very comfortable that differences like those on this thread are probably not audible under normal listening conditions. They might be under critical 'serious' comparison though.
Also, cognitive bias is a bitch.
A reminder, to me, to avoid dogmatism.

 

[Heinrich]

Too many variables to begin to sort.

Sometimes it‘s fun to pull people‘s leg. Think of Wilson‘s „Puppy“ that showed nearly zero impedance at some frequency, and the magazines not recommended to avoid it, but to buy a bigger amp. That little voodoo puppet (sic) was clearly sensitive to wire gauge, which proved its revealing excellence.

Guys, what I didn’t find up to the moment is a simple suggestion. Use both cables, which are readily at hand, obviously, simultaneously. That would allow all harmonics to get through, re-balancing the world for good.

Where‘s your humor?

Even if he/she was serious about it, such suggestion might help coming out of the circle.

 

[Talisman]

This is the value of ASR for me: I've gone from "must spend 10% of system value on cables" to "of course cables make no difference".
Now there's a more nuanced view that there are measurable differences and sometimes they matter.
I'm very comfortable that differences like those on this thread are probably not audible under normal listening conditions. They might be under critical 'serious' comparison though.
Also, cognitive bias is a bitch.
A reminder, to me, to avoid dogmatism.

24 awg is an extremely small wire gauge, almost everyone in here uses 18 to 12 awg gauges, gauges where these comparisons lose importance on these lengths.
The full sentence is "wires make no difference if sized correctly"

 

[boxerfan88]

Yeah, power amp to speakers, 16/14 awg works very well. I use 14 in my old setup.

12awg can be a bit stiff.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Guys, what I didn’t find up to the moment is a simple suggestion. Use both cables, which are readily at hand, obviously, simultaneously. That would allow all harmonics to get through, re-balancing the world for good.

You need to read his first post again.
That is what he did and reported an improvement.

 

[Heinrich]

You need to read his first post again.
That is what he did and reported an improvement.

Huh, I didn‘t feel to be that heroic this morning.

Eventually, where‘s the problem then? He is asking for independent, non-bias investigation. Well, it is already done. It was finalized in form of Maxwell‘s equations on electrodynamics. As far as I know they have it all.

 

[antcollinet]

Dumbass stupid post deleted. What was I thinking? (you can see it where quoted)

I'm blaming the Bushmills.

 

[Heinrich]

But this is not in line with general ASR thinking

I appreciate your critical point of view. I‘ve got some concerns myself once in a while.

In your example, though, the comparison is 2m of length v/s 5m, and the difference is 100 milli dB max, 0,1dB if my maths hold.

Would that be objectionable in presence of differences of about 5dB from position to position in between a few centimeters in-room? I think, a valid criticism would start with Maxwell‘s equations. We rely on them for our lives, literally, on a daily basis. These tell, that the influence of wire gauge can be calculated. Now someone comes along, who heard differences beyond the model‘s predictions. Further more he asks others to prove him wrong, or confirm. What do you think on the very topic of who is in charge? On my side there‘s not too much doubt.

 

[NTK]

Yeah, such difference will modulate resulting frequency response depending on complex impedance of the speaker.

View attachment 445275

Measurements of speaker cables in frequency and time domain

Measurements of 6m zip-cord speaker cable in frequency and time domain A controversial theme and I would like to contribute with facts only. I have made measurements on my 6m 2x4mm2 speaker cable and wanted to show the effect of the cable in isolation, however with the cable connected in the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

But this is not in line with general ASR thinking

How is it "not in line with general ASR thinking"?

The "general ASR accepted rule" is to aim for a system damping factor of at least 20, per Dr Toole's 1975 article.

https://www.diyaudioprojects.com/Technical/Papers/Damping-Damping-Factor-and-Damn-Nonsense-Floyd-Toole.pdf

As an example, for a load of 4 Ω minimum, a damping factor of minimum 20 gives a system source impedance of 0.2 Ω maximum. (A 5 m back-to-back run of 13 AWG cable (2.6 mm²) has a nominal resistance of 0.066 Ω, and will represent ~1/3 of the total source impedance budget.)

The voltage loss from the 0.2 Ω source impedance into the 4 Ω load is 0.2/(4.0+0.2) = 0.048. In dB attenuation, it is 20 log10(1 - 0.048) = -0.4 dB. Therefore, in this case of damping factor of 20, the maximum attenuation is 0.4 dB (minimum is ~0 dB when the load Z is >> 4 Ω), causing a frequency response deviation of +0.0/-0.4 dB. And this level is considered not significant relative to the anticipated frequency response unevenness of a passive loudspeaker.

Your measurement showed a very similar same level of FR deviation (~ ±0.2 dB). Where is the "not in line"?

 

[unpluggged]

I'd say it rather is YOU who should think about your attitude?
The OP, @Earwax, has posted legitimate questions about an observation he made in a calm and kind way. He is clearly not not trolling or promoting falsehoods.
This also applies to other threads he opened.

Your post has been reported.

Reported for what? Please point me to the specific forum rules I have violated by expressing my desire to see less such topics on this forum. OTOH, I can show you a bunch of threads and posts made by the OP where they deliberately test our patience by posting outrageous claims under the pretense of being undereducated and acting in good faith.

So I think it is you who needs to watch one's attitude, though I understand that it might be normal in your society to report on your neighbors. And I demand an apology from you.

 

[Karmacoma]

My sorry arse always thought the bigger the better when we're talking about wires... So i might get less bass extension with a thicker one, good to know.
How would it translate if you're using a class D amp with a high damping factor?

 

[oleg87]

So i might get less bass extension with a thicker one, good to know.

That's not the only thing you're likely to change, so I really wouldn't recommend using high wire impedance as a tone control.

 

[amirm]

Let's dial it down folks. Don't talk about each other.

 

[DonH56]

This is meant to say “18 AWG is about 0.14 dB”?

Yes, typo, thanks. Fixed.

 

[DonH56]

You can do ABX with just a 3 position switch. Though you do need someone to do the switching for you. You can even do it just with plugging and unplugging cables but you lose the instant switching, it becomes massively inconvenient, and prone to error. I wouldn't bother with that way.

Without rapid switching AB(X) testing is of questionable value. Auditory memory is too short, ~6 seconds IIRC.

And it is not that difficult - with cables for example, level matching is not required.
EDIT : Perhaps as per @DonH56's post above, it probably is required, which makes both AB and ABX testing more difficult - unless using the delta-wave method mentioned by @SIY

Yes, the cables very likely contribute enough to mess up the levels. For a listening test, levels will need to be matched, which can be a challenge. The problem is that, while we can only hear about a 1 dB or so change at best during normal listening, rapid switching enables us to detect changes around 0.1 dB and that is hard to match with the resolution of typical volume controls. Setting up a mic and recording it is much easier, does not require rapid switching when collecting the data, and presumably the software can adjust the levels later.

 

[MatrixS2000]

I can`t find any facts or even some persons data from measurements taken using equipment sensitive enough to explain what I`m hearing,

First, we need to clear the above up. If you don’t think we have equipment sensitive enough to measure what you are hearing, you need to ask yourself how you are hearing them in the first place? If you hear it, it had to be measured to be captured so that it could be recorded and stored into whatever you are listening to. So equipment with the sensitivity needed is not an issue.

Second, you need to get familiar with spectrograms and null testing. They will show you everything about any piece of music. Once you become familar with them, you can then come up with your test scenario, capture and compare spectrograms to see if anything changes. You will need an ADC to capture at your speaker inputs and a line level converter.

Here is an example spectrogram with 10 harmonics selected (the dashed boxes).

 

[RayDunzl]

12awg can be a bit stiff.

2AWG is definitely stiff.

Nuts are 13mm for scale.

19 strands of about 18AWG (solid)

I did it because I could and the price was $0

 

[Salt]

All that corroding copper ...

 

[Talisman]

2AWG is definitely stiff.

View attachment 445426

View attachment 445427

Nuts are 13mm for scale.

19 strands of about 18AWG (solid)

I did it because I could and the price was $0

Honestly.
Just because it can be done doesn't mean it should be done.