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I just heard the future of Magnepan! We all win...

josh358

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(Yes, I didn't get the text right in the quote... this is in reply to your earlier point, Josh.)

I missed the Firebird Suite, but otherwise, my wonderful listening experience and takeaways from the new 30.7 mirror yours!

My wife Jan joined me and only minutes into our arrival I hear a "wow, this speaker is much better than ours". She's had a lot to say about Magnepans over the years, and I assure you not a single one of them began with a "wow". IMHO this new, dramatically reduced footprint and small woofer WILL translate to improved spousal relationships for Maggie owners and increased sales for Magnepan.

Thanks for sharing your technical insight on the improved 30.7 and it's great bass. I too am absolutely confident Magnepan will resolve any remaining technical and pricing challenges. I am also somewhat confident that Magnepan will successfully transition from their tired packaging and meet or exceed the 2020's consumers high design bar. We'll know soon enough!

What does bother me though is that the likely superior product is not going to be marketed to its full potential--I say this with years of marketing experience, which to some degree prompted my post. Even reading this thread, it's pretty interesting to me about the level of skepticism about these being shill posts. Yet, I just re-visited Magnepan's website and I'm reminded of the opportunities to get it right.

Where I really worry for Magnepan is their ability to evolve into a strong brand, create a successful brand character, and deploy all the derivative strategies involved. An existing management team can manage product improvement - but creating a strong Brand and riding it to long-term success is an order of magnitude more complex.

Magnepan's conundrum is whether its shareholders can pull this off with the current management team or if they have the ability attract a new team to lead them.

I consider Jim Winey a genius, Wendell Diller one of the most likable and dedicated professionals in audio, and while I haven't yet met Mark, I do know that all three of them are now facing a great challenge.

It is a watershed moment for Magnepan, I truly wish them success...
Mark's a really nice guy.

I think their problem right now is that sales of large speakers of any kind have been falling off. That, and the fans of two-channel stereo are aging out -- younger people favor headphones and portable audio. At the same time, the dealer network has been shrinking, and the old mid-fi stores have disappeared, so there's no funnel to get new customers into the remaining higher end stores. Finally, as an American manufacturer competing against low-wage producers in countries like China, they're very constrained in what product lines they can go into since the Chinese can undersell them. So strong headwinds that would challenge any management team.

In any case, the purpose of this speaker concept was to overcome what Wendell diplomatically calls the conflicted couple -- as in the prospective customer wants a pair of 30.7's and their spouse thinks earbuds are too big. And based on the situation and what guys were saying at the focus group I attended, I think it will increase sales. But ultimately, I think they'll have to diversify beyond that if they're to maintain sales. The question is how.

That said, they really do have to fix that website. :)
 

josh358

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You need to reflect on why lots of people are coming to the same conclusion about your posts.
I'm my opinion it would have helped if you had explained who you were, and your relationship with the company up front, without that context people fill in the blanks themselves.
I thought about doing that, sounds like I should have, but I was reluctant to mention my unpaid consulting role in the development of the prototype. (I'm a retired engineer, so I have a lot of time on my hands. (It's the first time I've done that -- Dave was briefly involved as well. In general, they prefer not to discuss the design process.) Most people on the forums I frequent know me and know that I owned Maggies and was on the Planar Asylum long before I'd met Wendell, but I haven't been on ASR very long and most of my posts here have been in other threads, e.g., the OKTO DAC thread. But since I'm familiar with the prototype, I've been checking out these threads, partly out of curiosity, partly because I can pass on some posts that they haven't seen, and partly because I'm in a position to answer some of the questions that people have.

Overall, I think people get this impression because I often defend the company. I'm in a difficult position since I can't always pass on what I know about the goings on there or the technical issues. So if I say something like Wendell wouldn't do that or the supertweeter segment in the 1.7 isn't just marketing BS, it can sound like I'm shilling. And I don't know how to avoid that, other than stepping back and agreeing that their website sucks. :) (But even there, most people don't understand how constrained their resources are in a business environment where they can no longer sell planars by the truckload. Wendell would love to upgrade the site and last I heard, an upgrade was in progress, but there are many competing demands within the company -- getting to this prototype for example required something like two years of R&D as concepts were discussed and various prototypes built and tested. I'd love some day to discuss the development process and how the prototype came to be, but there's a lot of proprietary engineering in the approaches we discussed, some of which may be used in the future, so it probably isn't feasible.)
 
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Soniclife

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Overall, I think people get this impression because I often defend the company.
I think it's mainly the inside information that alerts people, were used to fans cheering for a company and it's products, but inside information says you are a company insider, without context what else are people to think? Long frequent and repetitive posts don't help either IMHO.
I kind of think that if someone from the company came here openly and posted they would have got less of a hard time than you did, because we know the roles a company rep has, and we know to filter their responses through who they work for.
 

Thomas savage

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I regret losing my temper (you should have seen the four letter words that I took out before I posted!) But just to make it clear, I *never* set out to market Maggies. So I get frustrated when people assume that what I'm saying isn't genuine, or is intended to boost their sales. And I've had lots of people say online that I'm some kind of shill for Magnepan -- one guy even claimed that I didn't exist -- so my frustration boiled over. I think if you talk to the guys who were at the sessions you'll find that most or all feel as I do about these speakers, and the critics as well.

It's a frustration to me that I can't describe the measurements behind the sound, or the technical explanations for same, but as Dave said they consider that information proprietary. And I do know Wendell and how he feels about marketing BS, as opposed to honest marketing. I don't blame people for believing otherwise, since that kind of BS is so common in the industry, but no one hates specsmanship and marketing BS more than Wendell and I try to say that when people assume otherwise.

Ditto the online reviews of the prototype. Sure, Wendell wants to get the word out for reasons that I mentioned -- he wants acceptance of the concept -- but they really were prototypes with no decision on whether to produce them -- the focus groups were designed in part to help them with that decision. And he asked for honest feedback, warts and all, in part so the company could make a decision on whether to proceed (they already know that he's enthusiastic about the project, so they didn't want the responses filtered through him). And I know the feedback proved valuable.
I fully accept this, you can be a agent without knowing it and it's that ambiguity that can cause the kind of issues you have experienced.

The whole online marketing and gorilla marketing thing is fascinating. It's just how these forums work , subtle market forces work their way in through agents , sometimes knowingly and sometimes unknowingly .

If this was not the case then a good deal of content would be missing. So don't worry about it.

The more technical information for us the better as this is what the members here like to see. It's kinda different than most places .

Have fun and thanks for posting .
 

Sir Sanders Zingmore

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The more technical information for us the better as this is what the members here like to see. It's kinda different than most places .
.

Part of the problem is that what we seem to be getting is classic audiophile review and personal statements with zero actual evidence.

magnepan has smashed it over the boundary with this one....
Even my wife said wow...
Wendell has solved the problem of xyz...
Wendell’s only fault is that he loves American jobs too much....

Don’t get me wrong, I like maggies (and panel speakers in general - I owned a set of Sanders electrostats). But I come to ASR for evidence-based learning and discussion, not for audiophile puffery
 

RayDunzl

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Opinion:

Having lived with a hybrid or two for 25 years, I've never really understood the "panel doesn't integrate well with a conventional woofer" complaint.

If anything, I'd guess a low frequency "room problem" that wasn't addressed with a little EQ someplace..
 

Soniclife

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Opinion:

Having lived with a hybrid or two for 25 years, I've never really understood the "panel doesn't integrate well with a conventional woofer" complaint.

If anything, I'd guess a low frequency "room problem" that wasn't addressed with a little EQ someplace..
Having demoed a few MLs I agree.

Embracing DSP makes sense, going fully DSP active would make even more sense, but it will scare the dwindling customer base I expect.
 

Thomas savage

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Part of the problem is that what we seem to be getting is classic audiophile review and personal statements with zero actual evidence.

magnepan has smashed it over the boundary with this one....
Even my wife said wow...
Wendell has solved the problem of xyz...
Wendell’s only fault is that he loves American jobs too much....

Don’t get me wrong, I like maggies (and panel speakers in general - I owned a set of Sanders electrostats). But I come to ASR for evidence-based learning and discussion, not for audiophile puffery
I agree , the message was not personalised to the forum . Leads one to think it's a scatterer gun marketing thing.

It's understandable on all sides.
 

Burning Sounds

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Part of the problem is that what we seem to be getting is classic audiophile review and personal statements with zero actual evidence.

magnepan has smashed it over the boundary with this one....
Even my wife said wow...
Wendell has solved the problem of xyz...
Wendell’s only fault is that he loves American jobs too much....

Don’t get me wrong, I like maggies (and panel speakers in general - I owned a set of Sanders electrostats). But I come to ASR for evidence-based learning and discussion, not for audiophile puffery

It seems to me this thread took the whole discussion away from the real question which is whether the new bass unit is a "new innovation." That it may sound good I don't dispute - but all we have here is marketing. I like Maggies too, and I can't fault Magnepan's support for a long out of production model, like my MG2.5R. I genuinely am intrigued as to the "secret sauce" - hopefully all will be revealed at some point.
 
D

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It seems to me this thread took the whole discussion away from the real question which is whether the new bass unit is a "new innovation." That it may sound good I don't dispute - but all we have here is marketing. I like Maggies too, and I can't fault Magnepan's support for a long out of production model, like my MG2.5R. I genuinely am intrigued as to the "secret sauce" - hopefully all will be revealed at some point.
Yeah, that should be the primary focus. But, unless Josh (or somebody else) is willing to divulge any science/technical details of the woofer scheme in this setup, there's nothing here really ASR-worthy.

The title of this thread is laughable and grandiose.

Dave.
 
D

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Really love how much advances/popularity planar based gear getting.
Planar speakers like Magnepan's have always been fairly popular. Magnepan has produced thousands of pairs of speakers....most of them probably still in the field operating fine.
These speakers do a lot of things very well, but they have trade-offs, just like all speakers do.
One thing they can't do though is break the laws of physics.

We're seeing a lot of flowery rhetoric with claims made for this new Magnepan dipole woofer system, but I can assure everybody there's no magic here. It's not physically possible.

Dave.
 

ajawamnet

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(there are otherwise almost no instruments with fundamentals below 37 Hz).


Low B on a five string bass/contrabass is 30.9Hz in 12-ET tuning....

My Kydd basses: http://www.ajawamnet.com/ajawamnet/kyddbassmods.html
smDSCN0021.JPG


And when I tune these for playing metal (yea, I've used them at metal gigs) I'm down a whole step from that at A1 - 27.5 Hz...
https://pages.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html
 

DonH56

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The lowest note on a standard 88-key piano is ~27 Hz. Low E on a bass guitar is about 40 Hz. Beat tones from musicians playing together often reach well below 40 Hz down to sub-10 Hz (I realize these are not fundamentals but are present in music -- we use them for tuning, among other things, and they are part of what makes a good section sound "bigger"). And plenty of percussives like drums, piano hammers, plucked strings, etc. reach deep. Early on I decided my MG-I's needed a subwoofer and I've run one with them ever since. I've never bought the "they don't need it" argument for any speaker; it's not only the extra octave or two, it's also the lower distortion and ability to place the sub(s) to improve in-room bass response that have been key to me.
 

Wes

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For the info of all.......Josh is a de facto marketing guy for Magnepan and friends with Wendell.
...

Josh, sign me up for a system but only if it is priced close to a 3.7i, not 20.x or 30.x in cost.
 

MRC01

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Low B on a five string bass/contrabass is 30.9Hz in 12-ET tuning... And when I tune these for playing metal (yea, I've used them at metal gigs) I'm down a whole step from that at A1 - 27.5 Hz...
A concert harp can emit energy below 30 Hz. You can hear it live if you're close enough, but most recordings don't pick it up. Here's one that does:
http://mclements.net/Mike/audio/13-Handel-Prelude.flac
Listen to the intro, and again around 1:50 into the track. This is from Heidi Krutzen & Lorna McGhee's album Taheke. It's subtle, but wow is it super deep, like an invisible force ever so gently shaking the room. My Mag 3.6/R pick this up better than my HD-580 and 600 headphones. It's low in level, yet still quite impressive.
 
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Planar speakers like Magnepan's have always been fairly popular. Magnepan has produced thousands of pairs of speakers....most of them probably still in the field operating fine.
These speakers do a lot of things very well, but they have trade-offs, just like all speakers do.
One thing they can't do though is break the laws of physics.

We're seeing a lot of flowery rhetoric with claims made for this new Magnepan dipole woofer system, but I can assure everybody there's no magic here. It's not physically possible.

Dave.

Yeah i highly doubt a small woofer can be that good when Dynamic woofers need pretty big drivers.
 

DonH56

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From the published info it is an array of eight 6.5" drivers: "Each Magnepan 'Double Dipole' woofer module features eight open-back 6.5-inch dynamic woofers. " That is equivalent to little over an 18" driver, which is "pretty big" in my world, and a pair would be like having a couple of 18" drivers.
 

MattHooper

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Opinion:

Having lived with a hybrid or two for 25 years, I've never really understood the "panel doesn't integrate well with a conventional woofer" complaint.

Having heard a boatload of hybrids, usually ML (but including acoustat, Soundlab, Quads with subwoofers, and others), I continually hear a discontinuity in the sense of dynamics and density between the woofer-covered frequencies and the panel-covered frequencies. The woofer produces a palpable "moving air in the room" presence, but the panel produces a ghostly, more weightless "holograph." So for instance in rock, the bass drum/bass will have some "kick" and density but the electric guitars playing higher up will have an airy, see-through weightlessness. They just don't seem to be moving air the same way. I remember this difference being made explicit when I had Quad ESL 63s with gradient subwoofers made for the Quads. I'd sometimes throw on my little Thiel 02 box speakers and wonder "why the hell do those voices, guitars, percussion, bongos etc seem so much more believable and "there-in-the-room" with the smaller box speakers? By contrast, on the Quads it seemed like I was staring through the speaker frame to musicians playing in another room, or at ghosts. (Exaggerating for effect, but that is the nature of the impression I get).


Every time I listen to my friend's ML hybrids the same thing starts to bug me. But...he doesn't seem to notice or care, fortunately for him :)

Though I'm also suspicious of the audiophile-type explanations for panels and cones not meshing, which seems based on intuitions about materials used vs technical facts of the matter.
 

MRC01

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... The woofer produces a palpable "moving air in the room" presence, but the panel produces a ghostly, more weightless "holograph." ... Every time I listen to my friend's ML hybrids the same thing starts to bug me.
IME with Maggies (which admittedly are different from MLs), when they aren't set up right in the room, they can sound airy or weightless. I suspect this is due to peaks & dips in frequency response from reflections because when set up right, the sound becomes more palpable & direct, and they are voiced consistently throughout the frequency range.

Of course, this airy sound could also have other causes, so this doesn't necessarily mean your friend's speakers aren't set up right.
 
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