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Hypex NC1200: Quality of the implementations

boXem

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Tell us how you would measure the electrical output of the amp and asses sound quality in a controlled and blind manner to see if your sheet of steel did anything?
All this while ensuring that none of the cables has moved from a single mm.
Ah, yes, and also checking that the external shield is not in front of the connectors, since these are the main entry points for RF and whatever the thickness of the box, connectors will always be present...
 

March Audio

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It is not worth continuing with the theme, at least in this thread.

Do what you think is convenient with your business. My advice was in good faith.
I'm sure it was in good faith but it is, with respect, not well informed on the subject.

You can't draw conclusion on RF and EMI issues from uncontrolled subjective listening, which is what you appear to have done.

This has nothing to do with my business.
 

Xulonn

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Maty, with respect I am quite confident you have no idea what the RF/EMI conditions are like in your house. Have you performed an RF survey with something like this? (I used to sell these BTW)

https://www.keysight.com/en/pcx-x205201/fieldfox-handheld-rf-and-microwave-analyzers?cc=AU&lc=eng

Tell us how you would measure the electrical output of the amp and asses sound quality in a controlled and blind manner to see if your sheet of steel did anything?
As most global warming deniers refuse to accept he validity of the findings of climate scientists and prefer to believe instead "some guy on the internet", many of those who deny the validity of audio science and engineering do the same. Leaving the debate is usually an attempt to save face when confronted with overwhelming evidence that buries their " beliefs."
 
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maty

maty

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As most global warming deniers refuse to accept he validity of the findings of climate scientists and prefer to believe instead "some guy on the internet", many of those who deny the validity of audio science and engineering do the same. Leaving the debate is usually an attempt to save face when confronted with overwhelming evidence that buries their " beliefs."

Open a specific thread and we will continue there. About RF/EMI of course.
 
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maty

maty

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I asked to Rouge Audio the measurements of the own buffer, the NCX2.

index.php


Francesco sent them.

"NCX2 circuit is designed to have on board 2 pairs of voltage regulators and 2 pairs of op-amps. You can easy switch by jumpers from OPA1612 to DIP8 and from TI to HxR."

with TI

* http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/pdf/rouge/NCX2_TI+OPA1612.pdf

* http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/pdf/rouge/NCX2_TI+SIL994.pdf

* http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/pdf/rouge/NCX2_TI+SS3602.pdf


with HxR

* http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/pdf/rouge/NCX2_HxR+OPA1612.pdf

* http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/pdf/rouge/NCX2_HxR+SIL994.pdf

* http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/pdf/rouge/NCX2_HxR+SS3602.pdf

about 530 Kb each PDF


They will share the photograph of the interior when the product is ready to be launched on the market.


https://www.rougeaudiodesign.com/

https://www.facebook.com/mydiy.it/
 
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Thomas savage

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@Thomas savage Free audiophile RF cancellation device with every purchase! $5320 dollar value, all for free.

Guaranteed to make blacks blacker and lift 7.83 veils. PRAT will improve by 100%. You will be 100% PRAT.


View attachment 28804
This gives me that after purchase confidence buzz, you are getting the hang of this Salesman lark mate.

Though I'd be happier with 110% PRAT ..
 

March Audio

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I asked to Rouge Audio the measurements of the own buffer, the NCX2.

index.php


Francesco sent them.

"NCX2 circuit is designed to have on board 2 pairs of voltage regulators and 2 pairs of op-amps. You can easy switch by jumpers from OPA1612 to DIP8 and from TI to HxR."

with TI

* http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/pdf/rouge/NCX2_TI+OPA1612.pdf

* http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/pdf/rouge/NCX2_TI+SIL994.pdf

* http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/pdf/rouge/NCX2_TI+SS3602.pdf


with HxR

* http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/pdf/rouge/NCX2_HxR+OPA1612.pdf

* http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/pdf/rouge/NCX2_HxR+SIL994.pdf

* http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/pdf/rouge/NCX2_HxR+SS3602.pdf

about 530 Kb each PDF


They will share the photograph of the interior when the product is ready to be launched on the market.


https://www.rougeaudiodesign.com/

https://www.facebook.com/mydiy.it/

A quick glance through those test results indicate almost identical measurements between the different op amps. Yet again supporting previous comments and Amir's test results.

One thing to note, it looks like they were all tested at 200kohm load which is not representative of the Hypex amps input resistance. The nc1200 is 5.8kohms and the Nc500 is 1.8kohms.
 
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Xulonn

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Maty, I don't understand why you seem to prefer bad design with added RF shielding over well-designing Class-D modules that do not emit significant levels pf spurious FR energy - which is a characteristic of well-engineered, modern Class-D amplifier modules. If a module does not emit RF EMF, why would one obsess over a problem that does not exist? (The phrase "solutions looking for problems" comes to mind.)

When Alan of March Audio revealed that he was an not only an expert on the subject, but had even sold high-end instruments that measure ambient RF energy, you abruptly announced that you were leaving that conversation.

OTOH, I enjoy following your effort to contact some of the top Class-D/Hypex amplifier manufacturers for their views on filters and buffers and how and why they implement particular methods and technologies in their final designs.

In my case, I follow some of these technical discussions, not because I am looking for a high-quality modern Hypex amplifier (especially with my limited pensioner's budget), but rather because of a 60-year curiosity about music reproduction technology.

And speaking of noise, that curiosity about modern engineering solutions to old problems is why I am pondering the possibility of converting the linear power supply of my soon-to arrive highly regarded, but obscure, 25 y/o Class AB/LPS power amplifier - a Classe Model Seventy - to a modern Hypex switching power supply. (If I can figure out whether it can supply enough current and also supply the secondary voltage.) Eliminating the very heavy toroidal transformer and four very large electrolytic PS capacitors could make an old monster lighter and more efficient, although as a class AB amp, it will never match the light weight and efficiency of a modern Hypex or Benchmark amplifier. But it could provide me with a truly excellent lighter-weight and more efficient modern amplifier for less than $600. For me this path would be for audio fun, and not an obsessive quest for audio perfection.
 

March Audio

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Maty, I don't understand why you seem to prefer bad design with added RF shielding over well-designing Class-D modules that do not emit significant levels pf spurious FR energy - which is a characteristic of well-engineered, modern Class-D amplifier modules. If a module does not emit RF EMF, why would one obsess over a problem that does not exist? (The phrase "solutions looking for problems" comes to mind.)

When Alan of March Audio revealed that he was an not only an expert on the subject, but had even sold high-end instruments that measure ambient RF energy, you abruptly announced that you were leaving that conversation.

OTOH, I enjoy following your effort to contact some of the top Class-D/Hypex amplifier manufacturers for their views on filters and buffers and how and why they implement particular methods and technologies in their final designs.

In my case, I follow some of these technical discussions, not because I am looking for a high-quality modern Hypex amplifier (especially with my limited pensioner's budget), but rather because of a 60-year curiosity about music reproduction technology.

And speaking of noise, that curiosity about modern engineering solutions to old problems is why I am pondering the possibility of converting the linear power supply of my soon-to arrive highly regarded, but obscure, 25 y/o Class AB/LPS power amplifier - a Classe Model Seventy - to a modern Hypex switching power supply. (If I can figure out whether it can supply enough current and also supply the secondary voltage.) Eliminating the very heavy toroidal transformer and four very large electrolytic PS capacitors could make an old monster lighter and more efficient, although as a class AB amp, it will never match the light weight and efficiency of a modern Hypex or Benchmark amplifier. But it could provide me with a truly excellent lighter-weight and more efficient modern amplifier for less than $600. For me this path would be for audio fun, and not an obsessive quest for audio perfection.

Cough.... Not an expert but have enough experience to know you can't judge what's going on RF/EMI wise without proper measurements and test facilities.
 

Xulonn

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Cough.... Not an expert but have enough experience to know you can't judge what's going on RF/EMI wise without proper measurements and test facilities.
I was at one time a technical salesman - is that in your background as well? My Southern California territory back in 1978-1981 included aerospace companies and many subcontractors serving that sector. They called us "Sales Engineers," and although most of us were not engineers, it was our job to coordinate our engineers with those of our customers, and get specced on drawings - and then get the orders, which might take years. We received a good bit of technical training at our factores and labs in New Hampshire, and knew more about the practical aspects of bearings and rotating systems than most mechanical engineerswho did not work in that sub-field.

My employer designed and manufactured some of the highest precision and most exotic "super-precision ball-bearings" on the planet, and one of my customers was involved in the design of a mechanical subsystem for the Hubble Space telescope. The Hubble was launched in 1990 - and is still functioning, thanks to some later repairs and upgrades by a Space Shuttle crew.

Am I a ball-bearing expert? No - but I know more about them than most people. Did I help to design the Hubble Telescope? No, but I did work with people who were involved in Hubble sub-system design, and it feels good to be even a tiny part of the huge team behind that project.

None of this helps me with audio since for me, all" rotating components except a volume control are now obsolete - no more rotating LPs, CD's tape spindles...but wait - my NAS still uses an enterprise class Hitachi mechanical hard drive, although that may change in a couple of years.

You may not technically be an expert in RF pollution, but you know enough about the technology to be very informative and helpful. I for one, very much respect and appreciate your input regarding Class-D amplifier design and dealing with potential RF emissions, noise and filter issues.
 

March Audio

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I was at one time a technical salesman - is that in your background as well?

My Southern California territory back in 1978-1981 included aerospace companies and many subcontractors serving that sector. They called us "Sales Engineers," and although most of us were not engineers, it was our job to coordinate our engineers with those of our customers, and get specced on drawings - and then get the orders, which might take years. We received a good bit of technical training at our factores and labs in New Hampshire, and knew more about the practical aspects of bearings and rotating systems than most mechanical engineerswho did not work in that sub-field.

My employer designed and manufactured some of the highest precision and most exotic "super-precision ball-bearings" on the planet, and one of my customers was involved in the design of a mechanical subsystem for the Hubble Space telescope. The Hubble was launched in 1990 - and is still functioning, thanks to some later repairs and upgrades by a Space Shuttle crew.

Am I a ball-bearing expert? No - but I know more about them than most people. Did I help to design the Hubble Telescope? No, but I did work with people who were involved in Hubble sub-system design, and it feels good to be even a tiny part of the huge team behind that project.

None of this helps me with audio since for me, all" rotating components except a volume control are now obsolete - no more rotating LPs, CD's tape spindles...but wait - my NAS still uses an enterprise class Hitachi mechanical hard drive, although that may change in a couple of years.

You may not technically be an expert in RF pollution, but you know enough about the technology to be very informative and helpful. I for one, very much respect and appreciate your input regarding Class-D amplifier design and dealing with potential RF emissions, noise and filter issues.

Thank you for the kind words.

OK this is going to be a totally off topic departure and should probably be moved to the "member introduction" section :). @amirm @Thomas savage

To answer your question, well my professional background is pretty varied, I have managed to have a career that spanned many technical disciplines.

Spent many years at Rolls Royce aero engines (Mainly military but Civil engines too) in electrical/electronics and instrumentation/data acquisition roles. As part of component and whole engine test and development, we would have to measure and analyse all types of physical parameters - pressure, temperature, vibration, stress/strain, displacement, rotational speed etc etc. On face value you might ask what has that got to do with audio, but it was doing very similar things to a studio recording engineer. For example, small audio frequency signals from vibration transducer or strain guages would need to be taken from the engines (think cabling in harsh conditions) amplified (without adding noise and distortion) , signal conditioned, often buffered to multiple data acquisition systems whilst maintaining absolute accuracy and integrity. We would then monitor and analyse these signals on scopes and spectrum analysers. I have been staring at FFTs for more years than I care to mention and installing, maintaining the associated electronic systems.

Dynamics (read anything changing at say audio frequencies) such as vibration / stress/strain guages and pressures was formerly analogue recorded to reel to reel FM tape in mobile recording vans similar TV outside broadcast vans. These recorders were excellent and could go up to 80kHz bandwidth IIRC at 60 IPS the tape would last about 7 minutes, but we rarely did that. 10kHz might be more normal. I was very heavily involved with progressing the systems to digital recording before I moved on from Rolls.

28 track Recording Van with se7000 reel to reel tape deck. This is going back quite a few years now.
Scopes, RTA, signal conditioning amplifiers (In house design switchable 6dB gain steps + strain guage supply), signal generators, signal patch panel.

1562211646525.png


Gone digital
1562211750503.png



Oh and we even used a massively powerful xray machine to look inside running engines to see how components moved through thermal and rotational forces. Should have seen the massive concrete blocks on the far side of the test bed to stop the rays!

Whilst similar to audio recording engineer in many respects there is one difference in this "measurement engineer" role. Signal integrity and accuracy is absolutely paramount. The data collected would be used to validate and modify engine design. As you can imagine, the worst case scenerio is if you collected poor quality or inaccurate data an engine could fail and people could die.

Sort of testing I used to be involved with:

Dave Hogan in this video was head of vibration when I was at RR Bristol. Very nice chap :)



Trent (A380) fan blade containment test


Spent many years testing EJ200 Eurofighter Typhoon Engines. Shown here being used in the Bloodhound land speed record project (exciting bit at about 3:45)

and as its meant to be use in the Typhoon - possibly the best display I have seen of its capabilities

Unrestricted climb

Possibly my favourite/proudest memory is of working on Concorde on its return to flight project (sadly after the accident)

Final landing at Bristol next to the Rolls Royce and Bristish Aerospace factories where it was built. We all lined the runway.

https://youtu.be/K4UHTiMJqpM

Worked on many other projects such as Joint Strike Fighter engines at GE in Cincinatti and supporting the US jet trainer aircraft at multiple Naval Air Stations. I think this was either Nas Kingsville in Texas or Meridian in Mississipi.

USA.jpg



After Rolls Royce I spent time at HGL Dynamics developing high channel count high bandwidth digital recording and analysis systems (for primarily aerospace applications). Think systems that can record 256 or more channels at 80kHz bandwidth with real time Ffts of each channel.

After moving to Australia I worked in an engineering firm that provided a range of services related to sound and vibration. I worked on acoustic modelling of noise in complex engineering environments, as a noise officer for health and safety hearing protection, and vibration analysis of rotating machinery and acoustically induced vibration in things like piping. Lots of bearing anylsis as you mentioned it above.

After that I worked for a measurement systems supplier. They are the Agilent WA rep. We did a lot of work with RF kit, spec ans, VNAs etc.

Now I am putting more effort into doing my own thing with March Audio and thoroughly enjoying it :)
 
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maty

maty

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Yesterday I could not see the pictures at FB. Expanded and optimized to better appreciate the details as much as possible. https://www.facebook.com/mydiy.it/

Rouge Audio STUDIO D-XM1200A mono power amp NC1200 based with Khozmo stepped attenuator

I can see a RF/EMI filter. And it uses the SMPS (thick) aluminum heatsink as shield.

Rouge-Hypex-NC1200-Aluda-Khozmo.jpg



Rouge Audio: 3 way Hypex NC1200 based with ISS control

Rouge-Hypex-NC1200-x3-ISS-control.jpg
 
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March Audio

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Typo corrected.
Heat sources are kept away from the small display, which is not a bad idea.
He is determined ;)

My recollection is that Bruno recommended not using mains Rfi filters. I am going to try and find the info. It should also be noted that the psu is CE rated so will have been tested for conducted emc
 

boXem

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My recollection is that Bruno recommended not using mains Rfi filters. I am going to try and find the info. It should also be noted that the psu is CE rated so will have been tested for conducted emc
I would be interested in reading this.
The PSU is CE rated, but my guess is that it's with a dummy load, not with stuff switching it's output at 500 kHz.

Inbetween I found this: Basics in EMC and Power Quality
Worth a reading for people interested in the matter. It also gives an overview of the various regulations.
 

March Audio

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I would be interested in reading this.
The PSU is CE rated, but my guess is that it's with a dummy load, not with stuff switching it's output at 500 kHz.

Inbetween I found this: Basics in EMC and Power Quality
Worth a reading for people interested in the matter. It also gives an overview of the various regulations.
Found it

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/38199-ucd180-questions-post466003.html

Do not use mains filters with Y capacitors installed. An Y capacitor makes a capacitive connection (several nf) from the mains lines to your chassis and hence audio ground.
So there is the audiophile designer, using transformers with a shield to remove the slightest chance of the mains polluting his system ground, then installing a schaffner inlet that puts 2.2nF straight from the mains into the chassis, simply because he heard somewhere that mains disturbances are audible. They are, more precisely when such a filter is used.


All commercially available "combined mains filters" have Y capacitors. Don't use them. If all your audio devices are connected to one wall outlet (likely), you can use such a filter there, but by no means on individual boxes.

In principle you could make a filter with only chokes (cm/dm) and an X capacitor. Fine with me, but unless you have a problem with heavily polluted mains you don't need them. The UcD will not be a source of mains pollution. If your mains are polluted by an external cause (like you have a car factory next door), a centralised filter on the outlet is more effective.

Fyi, none of my audio devices have mains filters on them

I would say his comments are pertinent to single ended systems (and make absolute sense in that context) more so than balanced
 
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