HTPC's (or PC's) cannot decode Atmos surround sound

[Miker 1102]

People are telling me I am wrong what I wrote in this first post, so I added this paragraph, did some text strike outs, and changed the title to say Atmos. I guess I was confused with Atmos vs regular surround. Sorry. The replies below are good though.

HTPC's (or PC's) cannot decode surround sound (like Dolby and DTS) to more than 2 channels. (I was wrong. they can do Dolby up to 8 channels, but not Atmos, and not DTS).
There is no apps or drivers you can add that will do it. They can decode to stereo (2 channel), but not to multichannel (more than 2).

JRiver cannot do it. Dirac and Roon cannot do it.
My guess is the same is true for Macs.

A Shield Pro can NOT decode it.
And Minidsp Flex HT, and SHD can NOT decode it.
My guess is Apple TV cannot decode it.

Some of the confusion comes from

1. decode vs passthrough.
2. multichannel that does not need decoding, like a musician creates 5 tracks of PCM - that does not need decoding.

These are interesting links for Atmos with PC:

• Difficult $400 work around
• Emulate instead of decode, as phoenixdogfan did

Wow. That is super helpful that you explained it so clearly and completely. JRiver needs you to help them write the help instructions. I will do Scenario 2. I would never go over 5.3. I will begin with 2.2 and future possibility of 3.2. or 3.3. Thanks very much for the help.

So you understand that your graphic card can decode everything but atmos and that gets passed thru to an avr. The work around for an htpc that go thru a multi dac are a pain. I use windows and madvr in MPCBE to play my 4k disc. It's an incredible picture that allows you to use tone mapping. I was confused by you saying that your htpc cannot decode dts or true HD. I believe Nvidia cards have been able to decode those for at least the last 15 years. Honestly, I used to have to re mux my movies because I couldn't afford a better card that would play DTS in the old days.

 

[stoo23]

Perhaps pardon my ignorance, but are we discussing Playback of 'Atmos' material purely for Audio? or for Movies?
Also, do Normal (Non Movie/Pop Star, Filthy rich Oligarc) people even have Atmos capable play back systems at Home?

Atmos Audio is somewhat of a Professional Audio 'joke' within the recording and studio industry as far as I'm aware.

 

[Littletycoon]

Perhaps pardon my ignorance, but are we discussing Playback of 'Atmos' material purely for Audio? or for Movies?
Also, do Normal (Non Movie/Pop Star, Filthy rich Oligarc) people even have Atmos capable play back systems at Home?

Atmos Audio is somewhat of a Professional Audio 'joke' within the recording and studio industry as far as I'm aware.

Most people don't but it will expand. I already have a soundbar in the bedroom that is 5.1.2, the .2 being upfiring speakers, with the ability to add wireless speakers in the newest models. Let's not discuss sound quality, but many millions have such soundbars in the living room, with major players like Sonos, Bose, Samsung, lg, etc. expanding their offerings.

in my living room I have 5.1 speakers, but plan to go 16 channel.


So yes, Atmos will go beyond a 'joke' if not already gone beyond it driven by "gimmicky" soundbars.

 

[stoo23]

Gee, really ??

So yes, Atmos will go beyond a 'joke'

I think a good search on Youtube might give a somewhat different belief
Quite a number of Very serious, talented and respected Engineers/Producers don't have such faith.
One suggested he barely recognized his Own 'Grammy Award' winning mix in Atmos !!

Let alone the inherent Equipment costs and 'dedicated' space required AND Serious lack of appropriate Royalties and Budget to Produce Atmos versions,....
When I was working in HiFi, Everything was 'Gearing Up' for the New Reality,... 'Quad' ................ Yep,.. So glad that happened LOL
Changed my life and listening experience,.. Oh, hang on I DO own the Who's "Quadrophenia"

 

[Littletycoon]

Gee, really ??

I think a good search on Youtube might give a somewhat different belief
Quite a number of Very serious, talented and respected Engineers/Producers don't have such faith.
One suggested he barely recognized his Own 'Grammy Award' winning mix in Atmos !!

Let alone the inherent Equipment costs and 'dedicated' space required AND Serious lack of appropriate Royalties and Budget to Produce Atmos versions,....
When I was working in HiFi, Everything was 'Gearing Up' for the New Reality,... 'Quad' ................ Yep,.. So glad that happened LOL
Changed my life and listening experience,.. Oh, hang on I DO own the Who's "Quadrophenia"

I think you selectively search for what you want to believe. Fact is that Atmos on streaming services is expanding both music and movies, mostly movies, music still less so, games as part of an immersive experience. Whether it'll become leading, future will tell.

But if you really want to classify it as a joke, your prerogative, I don't care.

 

[chelgrian]

Gee, really ??

I think a good search on Youtube might give a somewhat different belief
Quite a number of Very serious, talented and respected Engineers/Producers don't have such faith.
One suggested he barely recognized his Own 'Grammy Award' winning mix in Atmos !!

Let alone the inherent Equipment costs and 'dedicated' space required AND Serious lack of appropriate Royalties and Budget to Produce Atmos versions,....
When I was working in HiFi, Everything was 'Gearing Up' for the New Reality,... 'Quad' ................ Yep,.. So glad that happened LOL
Changed my life and listening experience,.. Oh, hang on I DO own the Who's "Quadrophenia"

So realistically the only way to get Atmos music on a speaker array is via Apple Music and an Apple TV. It's is possible via Amazon music with the latest Fire sticks but it seems to be fiddly to get working. Tidal's market share is so low that I've not looked in to it.

Apple's market share is about 15% and only a fraction of those will have an Apple TV. Amazon's market share is about 13% and again only a fraction will have the Fire Stick.

Of those that have the source only a fraction will have the necessary speaker array or silly sound bar to actually attempt to make use of it.

So yes I agree with you that Atmos for music on speakers is mostly DoA.

Atmos for music rendered in to binaural on headphones may be a different matter but currently it's hobbled by being rendered out of crippled delivery formats for speaker arrays rather than directly out of the original ADM files.

 

[stoo23]

But if you really want to classify it as a joke, your prerogative, I don't care.

It was NOT myself that suggested that, but a couple of Very serious World famous engineers, who may very well have recorded material you own.
Also, I stumbled on that 'Comment' simply watching some interviews with aforesaid Engineers.

I had not searched for Atmos !!!
If You want to listen to an Atmos version of a Mix that sounds Nothing like it's 'Original' Stereo mix, then as you suggested, that's Your perogative

The Big Problem, is the Budget, NOT the technology !!! Although, for music, I'd still seriously question it's Validity.

Apple want Artists to submit Atmos versions of their material, (a very expensive, limited and time consuming affair to produce compared to a Stereo mix) and then charge consumers for the wonderful ?? Atmos 'Immersive' Mix.
Does the Artist get Any of the extra Atmos fees from Apple ???,.. NoSirEee and let's be honest, even IF they did.
Unless you are an Artist that sells Gazillions, it probably still 'Pales into insignificance' compared to the Movie market.
For Most Artists the Budget to produce an Atmos version of their music, simply Isn't there and the Record companies etc Don't want to Pay for it,.. They Don't NEED or in most cases even Want an Atmos version because it Costs So much to make and Who / Where will they get the Financial Return from ???

Like I said, it's the Budget, much like it was Way back when, with Quad

 

[john11]

Do you know if a zidoo z9x pro can decode dts hd ma, or dolby tru hd to 2 channel output via the audio / video jack on the back of the unit
I'm using the internal media player but also have kodi installed as well, would either of these two do the decoding

 

[Esprit]

The new Apple Mac mini:

Video Playback

• Supported formats include HEVC, H.264, AV1, and ProRes
• HDR with Dolby Vision, HDR10+/HDR10, and HLG

Audio Playback

• Supported formats include AAC, MP3, Apple Lossless, FLAC, Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, and Dolby Atmos

 

[Tre2023]

I returned a Mac mini M4 a couple of days ago after experimenting with it. Since my last post here, my M1 was updated and can Passthrough(bitstream) DD signals including Atmos/DD+ from the Apple TV and Apple Music apps. For my M1, I purchased a Cable Matters USB-C to HDMI adapter and downloaded the special firmware for 4K @120Hz. I also downloaded the BetterDisplay app to lock in 4K HDR10 RGB 10 bit @120Hz in the M1.

While the M4 is supposed support Dolby Vision, it does not do so when connected to an AVP/AVR or TV. Using the BetterDisplay app, I was only able to select Dolby Vision at 60Hz in either FULL or LLDV. Neither worked properly and looked like s#%t. This was also the case with the M1 using BetterDisplay.

I’m no power user for sure and just wanted Dolby Vision from a Mac but the M4 is not going to do anything for me here. It does support HDMI 2.1 and HDMI-CEC but has no settings for it and it did wreak havoc on my already maxed out HDMI-CEC device list. It also supports ALLM and VRR but VRR up to 120Hz left ON makes the movies in the Apple TV app jump from light to dark and back again constantly.

I was disappointed with the lack of Dolby Vision over HDMI. But, for those who purchase many of their movies digitally from Apple, Dolby Vision and Dolby Atmos can be had using Airplay from the Mac mini M1/M2/M4 Apple TV app to a compatible TV. It works very well from my M1 to my LG C1. Though, many will already have an Apple TV 4K for Dolby Vision and Dolby Atmos over HDMI for their digitally purchased movies from Apple.

 

[somebodyelse]

Any comment about fan noise for the Mini M4 in AV use? I've seen many complaints about excessive fan noise with certain applications. I would expect pure audio use would have low enough resource use to be silent or near silent, but video could easily change that, especially if a format is missing hardware acceleration.

 

[GXAlan]

For all the negatives about Dolby Atmos music, remember that the 2 channel mix may have dynamic range compression due to the loudness wars whereas the Atmos mix, independent of all the extra surround and height data has the benefit of wider dynamics. Atmos with lossy compression may be superior to uncompressed stereo due to the different mix.

 

[Tre2023]

Any comment about fan noise for the Mini M4 in AV use? I've seen many complaints about excessive fan noise with certain applications. I would expect pure audio use would have low enough resource use to be silent or near silent, but video could easily change that, especially if a format is missing hardware acceleration.

I did not hear a sound out of the M4. But, I hardly worked it over. I did like it and wanted to hang onto it but I just couldn't justify it. Apple crippled it out of the box. If it supported Dolby Vision properly over HDMI connected to an AVP/AVR/TV and HDMI-CEC was customizable in settings, I would have migrated everything over from the M1 and traded it in for the M4. I'm not going to wait for updates to fix some features and never add others like I did with the M1. One should not have to turn to third party adapters and apps to tweak their Mac into acceptable levels of performance.

 

[Esprit]

While the M4 is supposed support Dolby Vision, it does not do so when connected to an AVP/AVR or TV. Using the BetterDisplay app, I was only able to select Dolby Vision at 60Hz in either FULL or LLDV. Neither worked properly and looked like s#%t. This was also the case with the M1 using BetterDisplay.

I don't understand how it can do this on an M1 if it can't on an M4.

 

[Miker 1102]

For all the negatives about Dolby Atmos music, remember that the 2 channel mix may have dynamic range compression due to the loudness wars whereas the Atmos mix, independent of all the extra surround and height data has the benefit of wider dynamics. Atmos with lossy compression may be superior to uncompressed stereo due to the different mix.

That's a good point. I cannot listen to modern rock at all. I do not understand how people listen to it. It's all noise and screaming. I grew up seeing metal when it was brand new in hockey arenas in the early 80s but the production on the music of the last 20 years is horrible.

 

[Tre2023]

I don't understand how it can do this on an M1 if it can't on an M4.

Using BetterDisplay, I was able to select Dolby Vision on the M4 and the M1. "Using the BetterDisplay app, I was only able to select Dolby Vision at 60Hz in either FULL or LLDV. Neither worked properly and looked like s#%t. This was also the case with the M1 using BetterDisplay."

 

[chelgrian]

Using BetterDisplay, I was able to select Dolby Vision on the M4 and the M1. "Using the BetterDisplay app, I was only able to select Dolby Vision at 60Hz in either FULL or LLDV. Neither worked properly and looked like s#%t. This was also the case with the M1 using BetterDisplay."

You are forcing an unsupported configuration. Dolby Vision isn’t really one standard and the source and the sink have to have a common understanding in order for it to work. The Dolby Vision output support in macOS is only designed for the Pro Display XDR and that is the only display it will work properly with. When connected to any other display macOS will convert Dolby Vision in to HDR10.

 

[Tre2023]

Right, which is why it looks like s#%t on any other display when forcing output as I did on both the M1 and M4. The M4 is worthless to me without proper Dolby Vision. They need to update it for Dolby Vision on ANY display. They also need to update HDMI-CEC so that HDMI-CEC can be tweaked if not just turned OFF altogether. The Nvidia Shield TV Pro has the best HDMI-CEC settings I've seen in any device. It is very customizable.

 

[Godataloss]

Xbox does Atmos and DTS X has a physical drive and is around $400

 

[chelgrian]

Right, which is why it looks like s#%t on any other display when forcing output as I did on both the M1 and M4. The M4 is worthless to me without proper Dolby Vision. They need to update it for Dolby Vision on ANY display. They also need to update HDMI-CEC so that HDMI-CEC can be tweaked if not just turned OFF altogether. The Nvidia Shield TV Pro has the best HDMI-CEC settings I've seen in any device. It is very customizable.

You want them to support it on macOS that is different from Apple needing to do it. It’s not a software or hardware issue at least on Apple Silcon macs because the Apple TV is capable of doing it. I suspect it is a licensing issue that Apple don’t want to pay the fees for every Mac when a small fraction of the users will use it similarly to macOS being unable to output Dolby MAT over HDMI.

Also Apple are allergic to extra enablement licensing fees so the model that MS uses where you have to pay for and download the Dolby Access app to enable support already built in to Windows will not fly.

Yes Apple have lost a sale to you and others but their calculation is the lost revenue is smaller than the fees they would have to pay to Dolby and unless or until that changes they won’t do it.