How quiet is -60dB?

[maverickronin]

Hd800 doesnt have the lowest distortion, even dan clark aeon have much lower distortion, also the hd800 with correction EQ raise a lot the distortion in bass. Amir calculator 35%.

IIRC that 35% was with digital clipping because he hadn't yet finished integrating the EQ processing into his measurement loop. I don't think her ever tested or published results with the EQ integrated properly.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

IIRC that 35% was with digital clipping because he hadn't yet finished integrating the EQ processing into his measurement loop. I don't think her ever tested or published results with the EQ integrated properly.

The distortion is already high in sub bass, and the sub bass of that headphone have a lot of roll off already.
Hd800 is not even near of be one of the best headphones in distortion.

Amir was estimate 35% distortion because he didnt the test, was not digital clipping or something like that, hd800 have a high raise in sub bass, that is the reason for having such a high roll off in sub bass, for control the raise of distortion.

 

[abdo123]

Hd800 doesnt have the lowest distortion, even dan clark aeon have much lower distortion, also the hd800 with correction EQ raise a lot the distortion in bass. Amir calculator 35%.

it's pointless to discuss distortion in sub-bass tbh. unless it's very very high.

Thank you for pointing it out. I mainly shared it because of the -60 dB discussion.

 

[solderdude]

According to numbers it shouldn't be possible to discern this noise due to random room noise being higher from the listening position, but I guess it's explainable through the specifics of the spectrum of the noise vs room noise and not so much the relative spl in itself. I can still hear it at around 65 dB avg music playing. My guess is that most people react to amplifier noise, not amplifer distortion.

My numbers were 90 - 120dB S/N ratio depending on the situation. When you can hear amplifier noise at the listening position you either have very efficient speakers or an amplifier that hisses a lot.
At the listening position you should not hear hiss when turning your amp on (inputs shorted or open). If it does you need an amp with a lower noise floor.

When measuring noise floors in the room consider what you measure may well not be the noise floor of the room but of the used microphone/pre-amp/meter.

 

[Frank Dernie]

while distortion can be detected at -40 to -50 dB under ideal conditions. So distortion is harder to detect.

I can hear that level of distortion if the fundamental is notched out.

 

[earlevel]

Can you?
If I do the same I can't hear anything, never mind make out the lyrics.
I usually listen to good dynamic classical music recordings with my level control set 20dB below maximum power (with compressed rock music it has to be -30dB or lower to have a similar average loudness FWIW).
If I turn the level down to -80dB, ie 60dB less, I have to walk to the speaker to hear anything at all and hear nothing at my listening seat.
It is easy for me to test since I have a volume control calibrated in dB.

Edit:
To make myself clear I am meaning the loudness of distortion products relative to the music, not absolute level.
If I play back a typically compressed modern rock track, where the level is pretty well all in the top 20dB of the level meter at -60dB it is all very intelligible but at -80dB not.

Well, my comments were to the original post, not to some of the comments about distortion products.

At my computer, my DAC (DX7 Pro) is connected to ILoud MTMs, using the +4 inputs, volume knobs full, each about 22" from ears. I don't have an SPL meter, so have to be vague about how loud I'm listening. It's about as loud as I'd want to listen at -20. (I'm doing this with Jet's Are You Gonna Be My Girl, as an arbitrary rock tune reference.) I like it better at -24, but -20 is still ok and convenient because it gives about four steps of -20 to talk about (DAC dials to -99), which is steps of one-tenth the signal level.

My computer is pretty quiet (2019 Mac Pro)—my work laptop's fan is by far the loudest thing in the room, I slept it. I live on a quiet cul de sac with no dogs—I've had dinner guests stop in mid conversation and comment on how quiet it is here.

Anyway, it's pretty much as I'm used to—at -60 from reference full volume (-80 on the dial), it's pretty easy to make out the lyrics, but this is not a normal listening level—it's the kind of level you might dial back to if you thought you heard a knock at the door. at ~-80 (-99), if not for the piercing midrange of the vocal, most of the music has dropped out. Not hard to heard him singing, but I'd only be able to make out words here and there if I didn't know them.

My experience with small signals is that once you get down to a signal that's plus/minus the lsb of 16-bit, you're only going to hear it monitoring at a fairly loud level. If I take this signal, which is a digital sweep of level ± lsb of 16-bit (twice the lowest level possible), it's easy to hear at my ref level of -20 on the dial, barely hearable at -30 (as it sweep through the mid freqs), and it could sweep repeatedly all day long at -40 and I wouldn't hear it.

16-bit sweep at ± lsb

 

[MRC01]

I can hear that level of distortion if the fundamental is notched out.

Is it a joke? e.g. you notch out the fundamental then the distortion tones become pure tones you can hear at whatever level, no longer masked by the fundamental. It's not longer a distortion test, but a simple level test.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Is it a joke? e.g. you notch out the fundamental then the distortion tones become pure tones you can hear at whatever level, no longer masked by the fundamental. It's not longer a distortion test, but a simple level test.

Not a joke.
Making the point that, doing a level test at home, I can only hear a sound 60dB lower than my usual listening level in the absence of any other audible distraction (without turning up the volume obviously, most people seem to seem happy to increase the volume and then be delighted they can hear low levels - duh!).
The proposal that I would be able to hear a sound at that level at the same time music is playing at my normal level at the same time is absurd - for me. I therefore deduce that -60db of distortion must be inaudible to me.
Test yourself and see if it is different for you.
Just a simple, logical (to me) sequence of engineering deduction.

Based on this it would be a waste of time and effort listening for at what level I could discern distortion starting at lower than -60dB (0.1%) because I can't hear that even without the fundamental.

The most credible (to me) distortion level audibility data is that on speakers (and years ago on record players) and they are so high it is no surprise, electronics are probably audibly transparent.

Noise is another thing.
A level one can hear at the listening position is annoying even without music playing if you leave your kit powered up all the time.
Over my 50 years of dicking with hifi I have had a couple of phono stages which were noisy enough and a Goldmund power amp (ironically the most expensive amp I have ever owned by a big margin) which you could just hear in the background.
Other than that no electronics I have owned had high enough noise levels to hear, but I can't put a number to it.

 

[MRC01]

Not a joke. ... doing a level test at home, I can only hear a sound 60dB lower than my usual listening level in the absence of any other audible distraction
...
The proposal that I would be able to hear a sound at that level at the same time music is playing at my normal level at the same time is absurd - for me. I therefore deduce that -60db of distortion must be inaudible to me. ...

This sounds reasonable, as perception of dynamic range is wider than perception of distortion. That is, we can perceive short-term dynamic range of around 60 dB, while we can only detect distortion at around -40 dB. That's based on what I've seen in testing under ideal conditions.

 

[MRC01]

... My experience with small signals is that once you get down to a signal that's plus/minus the lsb of 16-bit, you're only going to hear it monitoring at a fairly loud level. If I take this signal, which is a digital sweep of level ± lsb of 16-bit (twice the lowest level possible), it's easy to hear at my ref level of -20 on the dial, barely hearable at -30 (as it sweep through the mid freqs), and it could sweep repeatedly all day long at -40 and I wouldn't hear it. ...

The levels depend on the dynamic profile of the music. With classical music, it's common for the music to have long sections with levels averaging around -45 dB, due to the music having a big 0 dB crescendo that is less than 30 seconds long, and being recorded without dynamic compression. In this case you're gonna be listening with the volume turned up pretty high. And you will easily hear stuff at -60 dB, as it's only 15 dB below the average levels of those long quiet sections.

 

[Lambda]

How quiet -60dB depends on how loud 0dB is
I know for a fact that can hear +10dB pure tones on headphones easily and 140dB@20Hz for a short time wont fry my ears.

-60 from 140 is 80dB SPL so in this case -60dB is not quiet at all!

I don't think my home equipment can produce 140dB@20Hz (maybe super high power IEMs?)
with headphones 120dB spl peak is maybe more realistic in which case -60 would be 60db...

 

[Frank Dernie]

The levels depend on the dynamic profile of the music. With classical music, it's common for the music to have long sections with levels averaging around -45 dB, due to the music having a big 0 dB crescendo that is less than 30 seconds long, and being recorded without dynamic compression. In this case you're gonna be listening with the volume turned up pretty high. And you will easily hear stuff at -60 dB, as it's only 15 dB below the average levels of those long quiet sections.

I take this into consideration in my test of me I wrote about earlier.
I almost only listen to classical music and the good recordings do indeed need the level to be set 10 - 15dB higher than for rock so it is this level I use as the baseline for my listening test of -60dB relative to. -60dB relative to the average is around 20-25dBA in room so lower than the background of 32-37 dBA so relying on frequency dependant hearing below the background level in the normal way.
The quiet bits are indeed often 45 dB below the average level and peaks 20dB above.

 

[earlevel]

...My experience with small signals is that once you get down to a signal that's plus/minus the lsb of 16-bit, you're only going to hear it monitoring at a fairly loud level. If I take this signal, which is a digital sweep of level ± lsb of 16-bit (twice the lowest level possible), it's easy to hear at my ref level of -20 on the dial, barely hearable at -30 (as it sweep through the mid freqs), and it could sweep repeatedly all day long at -40 and I wouldn't hear it. ...

The levels depend on the dynamic profile of the music. With classical music, it's common for the music to have long sections with levels averaging around -45 dB, due to the music having a big 0 dB crescendo that is less than 30 seconds long, and being recorded without dynamic compression. In this case you're gonna be listening with the volume turned up pretty high. And you will easily hear stuff at -60 dB, as it's only 15 dB below the average levels of those long quiet sections.

Not sure you got what I was saying. I was referring to listening qualities at relative levels, down from comfortably loud listening to a typical-reference rock tune. The loud body of the tune, replayed at different levels. I specifically avoided the issue of dynamics. I didn't want to test with tones, because I think intelligibility is also a point of interest. We're most sensitive to voice frequencies, so it's interesting where that falls off, in addition to where it can't be heard at all.

 

[Frank Dernie]

How quiet -60dB depends on how loud 0dB is
I know for a fact that can hear +10dB pure tones on headphones easily and 140dB@20Hz for a short time wont fry my ears.

-60 from 140 is 80dB SPL so in this case -60dB is not quiet at all!

I don't think my home equipment can produce 140dB@20Hz (maybe super high power IEMs?)
with headphones 120dB spl peak is maybe more realistic in which case -60 would be 60db...

You are risking damage at these levels, though I was not aware of any system capable of 140dB at 20Hz, what system was it?

 

[Thomas savage]

That's the golden place you want your farts to be when your squeezing one out at the family get-together.

Or you can play with psycho acoustics , sum up the nature of other environmental sounds ( background) and the dynamic sounds (forefront) then maybe we need less background noise ( noise floor) to cover our arse vent , back passage recorder, butt chat , brown yawn , peanut chorus....

 

[Lambda]

You are risking damage at these levels, though I was not aware of any system capable of 140dB at 20Hz, what system was it?

140db@20hz is only 90dB(A)
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-dba-spl.htm

OSHA says that's fine for 8h a day
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/PermissibleExposureTime.htm

Serach for DB Drage or SPL Drag on youtube
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB_drag_racing
if you have the chance to experience it i would recommend giving it a try

 

[danadam]

and 140dB@20Hz for a short time wont fry my ears.

-60 from 140 is 80dB SPL so in this case -60dB is not quiet at all!

According to equal-loudness contours that's around the audibility threshold for 20 Hz.

 

[abdo123]

According to equal-loudness contours that's around the audibility threshold for 20 Hz.

Sometimes I really wonder how music would be if loudness war wasn’t a thing.

 

[GradyBeach247]

It's worse than that Jim (think funny Startrek based song)... 350dB

View attachment 113019

I'm sure he is bothered by all the noise made by kuiper belt objects generating noise from their incessant spinning around and colliding considering they are only about 30-50 AU out and make no end of a clatter.