How Loud Do You Need?

[watchnerd]

I've used 83 dBC (slow) average at the listening position as my 'reference level' (based on mixing standards) for casual listening for some time now.

Last weekend I played around with my highest DR recordings and the peaks were about 20 dB higher than my reference listening level, aka 103 dBC* at the listening position.

This would seem to indicate that, for me, I need a system that can hit 103 dBC at 11 feet / 3.35 meters without crapping all over themselves. Loudness beyond that is pretty much unnecessary lest I want the wife / neighbors / police to come yell at me.

What's your loudness envelope?


*My regular stable of speakers I have lying around the house (Martin Logan Sequel, Martin Logan Electromotion, Dynaudio LYD7, Dynaudio BM6A, JBL LSR305) all start to show signs of distress as this level is approached. Thus, this test was conducted using a set of JBL PA speakers that a friend brought over for a weekend jam session.

 

[RayDunzl]

What's your loudness envelope?

Very similar, if not the same.

 

[RayDunzl]

As for needing 103dB - you need that as peak, not continuous, no?

Mine distress (something distresses) at higher level test tones, but I don't hear it dynamically with up to 110dB peak readings, and didn't notice it at 116.9dB peaks when I tried a few seconds of drum solo at "calibrated" live level.

 

[watchnerd]

As for needing 103dB - you need that as peak, not continuous, no?

Mine distress (something distresses) at higher level test tones, but I don't hear it dynamically with up to 110dB peak readings, and didn't notice it at 116.9dB peaks when I tried a few seconds of drum solo at "calibrated" live level.

Yeah, music peaks at 103 dB.

On music transients at 103 dB the distress for most of my stable of speakers is momentary ("oh...that got a little messy / not as clean as it could be").

I'd probably do better if I had a sub / bass management system in place.

On the other hand, 103 dB continuous of tones or pink noise (which I also played with), caused all sorts of ickiness.

 

[RayDunzl]

My speakers (ML and JBL) show rising levels of THD as they go above (maybe) 85dB. The harmonics start rising out of the noise floor around there and it gets worse quickly.

Here's the JBL, since they're worse.

95.9 dB LCFMax at 10 feet, 100dB LZpeak, short 1kHz tone:

Wow.

Martin Logan:

Wow wow...

Ok, little 50W monitors vs Krell/ML monsters, unfair fight.

 

[watchnerd]

Ouch!

Although to be fair, that's asking a lot of a 2-way designed for nearfield. And a big range the 8" driver is trying to cover.

Have you read the No Audiophile review where he combines them with a sub?

 

[RayDunzl]

You don't need a sub at 1kHz.

And added ML and comment above.

Specs JBL LSR 308:

Max Peak SPL 112 dB SPL C-Weighted

1, 2, 4 meters = 112, 106, 100 assuming half-space, I think the room beefs up the SPL a bit here.

 

[watchnerd]

You don't need a sub at 1kHz.

For tone testing, no, you don't.

But hopefully we're doing this as leading indicators relating to broad-band content like music.

 

[watchnerd]

Martin Logan:

View attachment 5428

Wow wow...

Ok, little 50W monitors vs Krell/ML monsters, unfair fight.

Well, yeah...

I'd like to see the Kii Three 1khz test tone results at a similar volume.

 

[RayDunzl]

We're doing this to look at levels as intimated in your first post. 100dB peak isn't too extreme, and is below your 103dB limit.

 

[RayDunzl]

My crappy unloved by anyone who knows about speakers and certified worst among peers by audio science 20 year old antique speakers pull through again.

2nd harmonic (the one we like - 55db down (0.177%) and the third, which we aren't sure if we like or not because it is odd, 75dB down (0.017%).

Woot woot.

4th and higher harmonics still buried in my fairly quiest (36dBA) room noise floor.

 

[watchnerd]

My crappy unloved by anyone who knows about speakers and certified worst among peers by audio science 20 year old antique speakers pull through again.

Makes me wonder if the recent big ML's measure any better above the bass crossover.

 

[RayDunzl]

Makes me wonder if the recent big ML's measure any better above the bass crossover.

From the measurements I've seen, about the same.

Not enough difference to get me anxious and out shopping..

Looks bad, sounds good...

Here are three with similar sized panels, about 15 x 48 inches:

New (2016)

Old (1993)

Mine (1998), 1/24th Octave averaging, single point measurement at listening position (10 feet), with a little "room correction". Bass dip is a room anomaly in the phase between the left and right.

Raw, 1/24, no EQ no subs:

 

[watchnerd]

Even with room correction, that's still one of the flattest curves I've seen from a home setup.

 

[RayDunzl]

Even with room correction, that's still one of the flattest curves I've seen from a home setup.

It must sound awful.

 

[oivavoi]

My average listening volume: 70-75 db "base level", and then peaks, dynamics and all that. If it goes beyond 80 db as base level I get heavy listening fatigue after 30-40 minutes. Maybe I have sensitive hearing, I don't know. I also perceive that I tend to lose out on the details in the music if I turn it up too loud. It's like my ears shut down a bit if it gets too loud. Anyway: I'm fine with a system which is able to play 100 db without getting into heavy driver distortion or clipping.

 

[RayDunzl]

If it goes beyond 80 db as base level I get heavy listening fatigue after 30-40 minutes.

What speakers and amp are you using?

 

[oivavoi]

What speakers and amp are you using?

Active monitors + sub. AVI DM10 + ken Kreisel DXD 808. But I have had the exact same experience the times I've visited other audiophiles to listen to their systems. I like to listen on much lower volume than they do.

 

[RayDunzl]

Oh well, I was accused of not listening loudly enough here before.

Right now, Sunday morning, Leq is 72.5, with 95.6 dBz peakage... and that's after turning it up a bit from where it started.

For me, I suppose the material being played has the most influence upon the onset of fatigue.

 

[DonH56]

I have not measured in a while but probably listen around 70 dB much of the time, rarely much louder. I designed my system to sustain 105 dB peaks from the L/R speakers but have not measured there -- I would bet distortion is pretty high. I tend to listen to music and higher average levels than movies.

A long time ago when I took the audio consultant's test I remember the peak-to-average ratio in music was 17 dB for well-recorded music, which included mostly classical plus some jazz and rock music. There wre all sorts of papers that converged to that ratio back then (1970's and 1980's). Any time I have seen numbers the past few years that has not really changed, though movies can hit 30+ dB (explosions and such down to quiet dialogue), and of coure highly-compressed music may be 10 dB or less. IIRC THX allows for 20 dB peaks but does require an extra 10 dB of headroom for the LFE channel.

I'm with RayDunzel: some music that sounds harsh fatigues me in minutes even at fairly low levels. Less a problem at my age since HF rolloff is around 10-12 kHz (down from 22-24 kHz in my youth).