Horns - Necessary to complete the Audiophile Journey?

[kevinh]

You should go listen to Klipsch Forte 3 and Klipsch Cornwall 4's. The new midrange horn is better IMO than the old horn.
Shame Earl Geddes isn't making his horns anymore, JBL M2's are great but the biamp DSP setup would be too much of a pain for your needs.

 

[tuga]

The majority of musical instruments are not directional, I'm a bit at a loss why would narrow directivity speakers be beneficial in reproducing their sound.

Instruments are either recorded with a "wide-angle lens" playing ensemble, or they're mugshot (no background) with a "short-tele or maybe a macro lens" and then mixed together into a composite picture.
Our system reproduces this picture using a pair of (main) speakers.

Wide dispersion speakers make use of the side walls to enhance envelopment but the downside is increased room interference, particularly noticeable when the recording aims at producing an illusion which transports the listener to the venue where the original event took place (common with classical music, rare with other genres).

 

[JohnBooty]

FWIW I sit a long way from my speakers in a relatively narrow room and I find narrow directivity speakers add less of my room acoustics to the recorded acoustics.
It isn't really a problem with bought recordings because I have no idea what the original acoustic was (and in the case of multi track studio pop music there was no original acoustic) but on my own simply miked classical recordings it is markedly less accurate.
It is why I ended up selli g my Apogee Divas. The stereo was very impressive but entirely false, being made up of lots of dipole room reflections which, obviously, weren't on the recording.
This sounded fine, lovely in fact, on bought recordings but disappointingly wrong on my own recordings.

I understand why people find it nice (I do too) and why it may be preferred but accurate it ain't.
Now I don't make recordings any more the lovely effect may appeal again but the lack of accuracy would always nag...

All true, beyond of a shadow of a doubt. All other things being equal, less room interaction = more fidelity.

But, even with narrow-dispersion speakers you still desire some room interaction, right? Otherwise, why use speakers at all instead of headphones/IEMs?

 

[Frank Dernie]

Leaving pedantry/purism aside, is hybrid bad if total system efficiency is high?

The JBL and Klipsch hybrids usually spec in the mid-90s to low 100s sensitivity range.

Given modern amp power, this would seem plenty.

There is probably no reason to buy horns at all. Full range appealed to me to try. I like them but the real aficionados say it needs to be a 5-way for the horns all to be properly loaded and criticise mine.

 

[Frank Dernie]

All true, beyond of a shadow of a doubt. All other things being equal, less room interaction = more fidelity.

But, even with narrow-dispersion speakers you still desire some room interaction, right? Otherwise, why use speakers at all instead of headphones/IEMs?

I see no need for room interaction. The less the better IMO.
The reason I don't use headphones is I dislike the experience, little to do with sound, though I hate the in the head image, butmainly to do with discomfort.
I only use headphones on public transport were SQ is ruined by background noise anyway.

 

[JohnBooty]

Wide dispersion speakers make use of the side walls to enhance envelopment but the downside is increased interference room, particularly noticeable when the recording aims at producing the illusion transporting the listener to the venue where the original event took place (common with classical music, rare with other genres).

The only time I've had that "holy smokes, I'm at the venue" illusion was listening to the open-baffle Spatial Audio M3 Sapphire at an audio show. It was remarkable.

There are a number of caveats there, such as "I haven't seen a live orchestra performance in over twenty years" and "I do not have regular access to higher-end gear." A lot of folks I talked to thought those were standouts at the show, though.

I see no need for room interaction. The less the better IMO.
The reason I don't use headphones is I dislike the experience, little to do with sound, though I hate the in the head image, butmainly to do with discomfort.
I only use headphones on public transport were SQ is ruined by background noise anyway.

That's sort of my personal iffiness regarding narrow dispersion speakers. The narrower the dispersion, the more the listening experience starts to resemble that "inside my head" experience ala headphones. I don't dislike that, exactly. Sometimes it's just the ticket.

 

[Frank Dernie]

That's sort of my personal iffiness regarding narrow dispersion speakers. The narrower the dispersion, the more the listening experience starts to resemble that "inside my head" experience ala headphones. I don't dislike that, exactly. Sometimes it's just the ticket.

I have never had an in the head listening experience with any speakers.

 

[watchnerd]

I have never had an in the head listening experience with any speakers.

Me neither, even with beamy electrostats.

 

[Sal1950]

The only time I've had that "holy smokes, I'm at the venue" illusion was listening to the open-baffle Spatial Audio M3 Sapphire at an audio show. It was remarkable.

I wonder what aspect of the reproduction most contributed to that "holy smokes" reaction?
Was it the soundstaging that gave you the feeling the band was right there in front of you?
Or the FR/timber of the instruments that made them sound real?
All of the above?

 

[617]

The most noticeable thing about the Gedlee speakers I have is that they are very, very clear and very dynamic. I'm not sure horn loaded bass gets you anything but big pro drivers and waveguides certainty do.

Make a kit with a Seos 15 waveguide if you can, it's not outrageously expensive and should be a change of pace.

 

[Sal1950]

I don't see any big mystery, the low distortion of a horn properly designed to function inside its desired FR range is easily measured AFAIK.
The problem in the deep bass range is the required size of the horns mouth. I've seen various attempts at basement builds opening into the listening room above, and many others but very difficult to accomplish, specially if you have a wife to please at the same time.

 

[tuga]

I don't see any big mystery, the low distortion of a horn properly designed to function inside its desired FR range is easily measured AFAIK.
The problem in the deep bass range is the required size of the horns mouth. I've seen various attempts at basement builds opening into the listening room above, and many others but very difficult to accomplish, specially if you have a wife to please at the same time.

View attachment 72459

I wouldn't say any of those is particularly well designed though.
To be pedantic back-loaded horns are not proper horns, they're closer to ports with gain...

 

[Sal1950]

To be pedantic back-loaded horns are not proper horns, they're closer to ports with gain...

When I see a bird that walks like a duck and swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, has feathers and webbed feet, I'm certainly going to assume that he is a duck.

 

[SIY]

When I see a bird that walks like a duck and swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, has feathers and webbed feet, I'm certainly going to assume that he is a duck.

The sound of those is absolutely dominated by the Lowther direct sound.

 

[jhaider]

Okay a question I should know the answer to:

What's the theoretical advantage of horn-loaded bass?

Good question! Most “horn” bass enclosures are really bandpass. As @Frank Dernie mentioned earlier, an actual bass horn would have a gigantic mouth, and depth to match. It would be an architectural feature, not a transportable box.

Bandpass boxes can be more efficient than closed or vented over a narrow bandwidth, often at the expense of large out of band resonances. Given that power and good bass drivers are economical I see no real world advantages to bandpass bass.

 

[Sal1950]

The sound of those is absolutely dominated by the Lowther direct sound.

Quack quack.

 

[SIY]

Quack quack.

They are not... uncolored.

 

[Sal1950]

They are not... uncolored.

Don't get racist on us now.

 

[Inner Space]

As @Frank Dernie mentioned earlier, an actual bass horn would have a gigantic mouth, and depth to match. It would be an architectural feature, not a transportable box.

Tell me about it. I once had a place with an 80-foot outbuilding. I started sketching an idea for dividing it into a 25' room, with 55' straight horns cast from concrete opening into it via 10' x 10' mouths. Could have been great, except I realized I would need to redo the foundations, or the hundreds of tons of concrete would sink through the slab into the earth. Nice idea while it lasted. (I filled the building with old cars instead, which was fun for a spell.)

 

[Sal1950]

(I filled the building with old cars instead, which was fun for a spell

That sounds like even more fun, and possibly profitable if you buy right.