Honesty in specifications

[JimA84]

It would be wonderful if we could either convince speaker manufacturers to give honest specs or else create an industry watchdog agency that was a clearinghouse for honest quality metrics.

I get so tired of the endless debates where some "influencer" Internet reviewer posts one thing, the speaker manufacturer posts another supposedly "validated" metric and the naysayers post that this speaker is junk and doesn't perform well.

I have a subwoofer that I am interested in to reproduce 16 Hz pipe organ but I can't get a straight answer from anyone.

I either get ignorant rants that I should be looking at larger subs (that take multiple people to move) or that these subs are overrated, or that they deliver 100dB at 10 Hz.

And I have no reason to trust or believe any of them.

 

[Dumdum]

Make your own sub with an amp and a raw driver, that’s how you know a sub will do what you want

If you want dishonest delve into car audio land!

 

[rynberg]

It would be wonderful if we could either convince speaker manufacturers to give honest specs or else create an industry watchdog agency that was a clearinghouse for honest quality metrics.

I get so tired of the endless debates where some "influencer" Internet reviewer posts one thing, the speaker manufacturer posts another supposedly "validated" metric and the naysayers post that this speaker is junk and doesn't perform well.

I have a subwoofer that I am interested in to reproduce 16 Hz pipe organ but I can't get a straight answer from anyone.

I either get ignorant rants that I should be looking at larger subs (that take multiple people to move) or that these subs are overrated, or that they deliver 100dB at 10 Hz.

And I have no reason to trust or believe any of them.

What's the subwoofer you are considering? If you are looking for reasonable size with good output to 16 Hz, that is a tall order. Perhaps a Rythmik F18.

In general, manufacturers do a very poor job conveying the true performance of their products, but several of the direct subwoofer companies provide at least some real data. In general, you can safely ignore any subwoofer review online that does not include any data and only relies on subjective impressions.

 

[Sancus]

There are some sub manufacturers, like Arendal, that publish CEA2010 which is about as honest as it gets. It's becoming more common, but I wouldn't hold my breath for all mfgs. Some are built around dishonesty.

That said, you always want at least two subs in a serious system. And there are plenty larger ones in the sub sheet that have >100dB output at 15hz, and in room that would be more.

Subwoofer Comparison

I've created a *slightly large* subwoofer comparison spreadsheet. :D Info: -==Link to my Subwoofer Comparison spreadsheet ==- https://bit.ly/SubwooferComparison

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[rynberg]

That said, you always want at least two subs in a serious system.

Subwoofer Comparison

I've created a *slightly large* subwoofer comparison spreadsheet. :D Info: -==Link to my Subwoofer Comparison spreadsheet ==- https://bit.ly/SubwooferComparison

www.audiosciencereview.com

While this is good advice for a true home theater space, there is little need for multiple subwoofers if you have a small listening area 1-2 seats). It's relatively straightforward to EQ a single sub to have linear response at a small area.

I certainly wouldn't compromise on capability to fit two subs in the budget.

 

[Sancus]

While this is good advice for a true home theater space, there is little need for multiple subwoofers if you have a small listening area 1-2 seats). It's relatively straightforward to EQ a single sub to have linear response at a small area.

I certainly wouldn't compromise on capability to fit two subs in the budget.

In my experience you just don't get a linear response with one sub, no matter how hard you try, unless you genuinely restrict it to a single point measurement. But single point measurements are highly unrealistic, unless you're genuinely putting your head in a vice in a single seat. And two seats definitely is not going to happen. Even different levels of recline in one seat will often produce significantly different responses.

Also you're generally not sacrificing capability to have multiple subs, so not sure why that would be relevant.

 

[Ellebob]

Whether using one sub or multiple subs EQ will be needed to get a linear response. With sub/seating placements one should not be looking for the closest to a linear response. They should be looking for placements that can be fixed with EQ. Avoid big dips, peaks can be reduced with EQ but not all dips can be fixed with EQ.

If you only care about one seat or MAYBE two seats, one sub is fine. Multiple subs are about getting a consistent or similar response in all seats so when you do use EQ it works for all the seats. Bass can vary quite a bit seat to seat. So, you might get lucky with two seats side by side or you might not.

Sometimes with practical seating locations for living, they are not ideal locations for acoustics. In these instances don't include the seats that measure vastly different in your EQ calculations. Just realize it's OK to have some 'cheap' seats.

 

[sigbergaudio]

In my experience you just don't get a linear response with one sub, no matter how hard you try, unless you genuinely restrict it to a single point measurement. But single point measurements are highly unrealistic, unless you're genuinely putting your head in a vice in a single seat. And two seats definitely is not going to happen. Even different levels of recline in one seat will often produce significantly different responses.

Also you're generally not sacrificing capability to have multiple subs, so not sure why that would be relevant.

You can get a good response in one seat with one subwoofer if you are lucky with room and placement. Not linear as in perfectly linear, but as in without dips. Then the peaks can be fixed with EQ. But the most common case is to have at least one dip.

 

[sigbergaudio]

I have a subwoofer that I am interested in to reproduce 16 Hz pipe organ but I can't get a straight answer from anyone.

I either get ignorant rants that I should be looking at larger subs (that take multiple people to move) or that these subs are overrated, or that they deliver 100dB at 10 Hz.

And I have no reason to trust or believe any of them.

What is your reasoning for assuming that those who say you need large subs are wrong?

The "problem" with 16hz is that you won't hear it, you will only feel it. And to feel 16hz vibrations you need to move quite a bit of air.

 

[DVDdoug]

EQ isn't going to help that much at very low frequencies because it takes tons of amplifier power and cone movement. For example, +6dB is 4 times the power. And the odds are, a "practical" subwoofer that goes down to 16Hz (on that fits in a living room) is going be be an active sealed speaker with some EQ already built-into it's electronics.

I either get ignorant rants that I should be looking at larger subs

You do have to "move a lot of air" at low frequencies because of the physics and because our ears (and body) are not as sensitive a low frequencies. 16-Hz organ pipes are the longest and fattest pipe!

Generally, a smaller driver can go-lower in a given box but a bigger driver generally gives more low-output. (That's a simplification... There are lots of variables & compromises.)

Most pro subwoofers used in dance clubs and for live performances are tuned to go-down to around 40Hz because that allows them to be more efficient to fill a large space with bass you can feel in your body. Of course they are usually large and usually there's more than one. (The lowest note on a standard bass guitar is about 40Hz.) (It's "easier" to get deep bass in a smaller space at home or recording studio.)

16-Hz (or other low frequencies) are useless if we can't hear them, of the amplifier or speaker distorts before when you turn-up the music to normal or "realistic" listening levels.

 

[ernestcarl]

In my experience you just don't get a linear response with one sub, no matter how hard you try, unless you genuinely restrict it to a single point measurement. But single point measurements are highly unrealistic, unless you're genuinely putting your head in a vice in a single seat. And two seats definitely is not going to happen. Even different levels of recline in one seat will often produce significantly different responses.

My situation may be atypical, but I do get a fairly consistent-enough response from my single subwoofer:

Moving microphone measurements "relatively linear" and easy to EQ to a "flattish" target curve below 90 Hz:

The bass consistency *below the transition zone applies to both MMM and single-point measurements: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-your-in-room-measurements.13540/post-1878671

At the end of the day, it's very room acoustics and position dependent.

 

[rynberg]

In my experience you just don't get a linear response with one sub, no matter how hard you try, unless you genuinely restrict it to a single point measurement. But single point measurements are highly unrealistic, unless you're genuinely putting your head in a vice in a single seat. And two seats definitely is not going to happen. Even different levels of recline in one seat will often produce significantly different responses.

Also you're generally not sacrificing capability to have multiple subs, so not sure why that would be relevant.

You are saying that you can't get a linear response with EQ at a single seat? Really? Reclining your seat is not going to substantially change your bass response below 80 Hz. How are you measuring this?

Also you're generally not sacrificing capability to have multiple subs, so not sure why that would be relevant.

If your budget is $1,600, you are absolutely giving up performance to get two $800 subs instead of one $1,600 sub. I mean that statement is just a bit silly.

 

[Sancus]

You are saying that you can't get a linear response with EQ at a single seat? Really? Reclining your seat is not going to substantially change your bass response below 80 Hz. How are you measuring this?



If your budget is $1,600, you are absolutely giving up performance to get two $800 subs instead of one $1,600 sub. I mean that statement is just a bit silly.

Dunno what to say to this. Your post is just wrong on all points. Bit silly to even type it.

At the end of the day, it's very room acoustics and position dependent.

That's true yes. Your measurements are pretty consistent though I do consider 4-5dB significant and it is audible.

I wasn't saying it's literally impossible for one sub to ever be linear, I don't think it is. But I've always seen an audible mprovement from two and I think it's proven from most measurements I've seen here and on avsforum that two does usually provide an improvement. It's all probability not certainty.

 

[JimA84]

I just get tired of the almost car audio level of misleading junk most subwoofer makers in particular offer.

JL have always offered pretty reasonable specs, and Monoprice have done so on their premium Monolith line.

But for a company like ELAC to offer specs like: "Anechoic 18 Hz, In Room 14 Hz" is worthless. The Fs doesn't magically change in a room

Their Dual Reference subs are powerful, but when you dig deeper, they have pretty sharp rolloff below 20 Hz. So at 16 Hz they might not be louder than a KEF KF92.
Unfortunately we will never know unless we buy them.

For hone theater addicts much of this is irrelevant. They can put vibrators under their seats and hire moving companies to relocate their 150 KG subs. I want something around 50 to 75 pounds that I can move myself.

I like decent movie performance but I'm a lifelong audiophile and want to be able to distinguish between pipe organs playing close to 16 Hz.

Based for instance on the replies from Rythmik I would disable their rumble filter and instead use a digital Butterworth filter at 48 dB per octave at 14 Hz on the input. This would achieve the response curve I want, protect them from the EOT soundtrack and still give decent pipe organ response. And this would likely cost around $350 for a stereo device that could handle two subs with XLR cables.

And the lack of figures on maximum output together with distortion are seldom published except by JL.

Indeed some of JL's speakers seem less competitive unless you look at the detailed specs with both output and distortion listed.

As for less costly brands, you typically get a lot of "frequency response" curves at around 80 dB.

So if you turn up the volume they will either distort horribly or fade into the background or both.

 

[Chrispy]

50-75 lbs for a sub capable of 16hz at higher spl is a pretty big ask I think. I doubt anything from ELAC or KEF is what you would be satisfied with. Maybe DIY with a really good driver using baltic birch ply to keep it lighter (and a rack amp).

 

[sigbergaudio]

I just get tired of the almost car audio level of misleading junk most subwoofer makers in particular offer.

JL have always offered pretty reasonable specs, and Monoprice have done so on their premium Monolith line.

But for a company like ELAC to offer specs like: "Anechoic 18 Hz, In Room 14 Hz" is worthless. The Fs doesn't magically change in a room

Actually most rooms will have significant room gain at the low end, so this does not seem unreasonable.

For hone theater addicts much of this is irrelevant. They can put vibrators under their seats and hire moving companies to relocate their 150 KG subs. I want something around 50 to 75 pounds that I can move myself.

I like decent movie performance but I'm a lifelong audiophile and want to be able to distinguish between pipe organs playing close to 16 Hz.

Based for instance on the replies from Rythmik I would disable their rumble filter and instead use a digital Butterworth filter at 48 dB per octave at 14 Hz on the input. This would achieve the response curve I want, protect them from the EOT soundtrack and still give decent pipe organ response. And this would likely cost around $350 for a stereo device that could handle two subs with XLR cables.

And the lack of figures on maximum output together with distortion are seldom published except by JL.

Indeed some of JL's speakers seem less competitive unless you look at the detailed specs with both output and distortion listed.

As for less costly brands, you typically get a lot of "frequency response" curves at around 80 dB.

So if you turn up the volume they will either distort horribly or fade into the background or both.

I'm not sure if anyone have quoted Hoffman's law to you yet, but what you are asking for is pretty difficult, which is why it will typically not be reasonably priced.

 

[JimA84]

I am frustrated with the general lack of meaningful specs from most subwoofer companies. It's all smoke and mirrors.

And CEA2010 doesn't begin to approach reason because it's limited and easily spoofed.

I think part is divergent goals.

Some people want to shake the walls, in which case they should simply buy some Rockfords. These are insane subs with zero low bass derived from Low Rider car audio culture. The magnet structure weighs about 150 pounds and it has no response below 80 Hz.

I care about high fidelity, not annoying the neighborhood with teenage "bass."

Unfortunately producing low distortion bsss at around 95 to 110 dB at 16 Hz or below is extremely demanding. Particularly if you want to reproduce it from a box that isn't six times the size of the instrument that made it itself.

This just requires some honest effort from talented scientists and engineers who don't care about MBA ideology, marketing, or ignorant "subwoofer culture."

Seriously, look at the size and power of the musical instruments that create the sound you're trying to reproduce.

It should not require thousands of watts and gigantic speakers to reproduce the natural sound of a symphony orchestra or a pipe organ made centuries ago, powered by the effort of a single player per instrument with no amplifiers.

Yet this seems impossible for the subwoofer culture.

 

[Chrispy]

I am frustrated with the general lack of meaningful specs from most subwoofer companies. It's all smoke and mirrors.

And CEA2010 doesn't begin to approach reason because it's limited and easily spoofed.

I think part is divergent goals.

Some people want to shake the walls, in which case they should simply buy some Rockfords. These are insane subs with zero low bass derived from Low Rider car audio culture. The magnet structure weighs about 150 pounds and it has no response below 80 Hz.

I care about high fidelity, not annoying the neighborhood with teenage "bass."

Unfortunately producing low distortion bsss at around 95 to 110 dB at 16 Hz or below is extremely demanding. Particularly if you want to reproduce it from a box that isn't six times the size of the instrument that made it itself.

This just requires some honest effort from talented scientists and engineers who don't care about MBA ideology, marketing, or ignorant "subwoofer culture."

Seriously, look at the size and power of the musical instruments that create the sound you're trying to reproduce.

It should not require thousands of watts and gigantic speakers to reproduce the natural sound of a symphony orchestra or a pipe organ made centuries ago, powered by the effort of a single player per instrument with no amplifiers.

Yet this seems impossible for the subwoofer culture.

I do miss data-bass.com being active, the archives can still be useful, tho. https://web.archive.org/web/20180201090701/http://data-bass.com/systems

Generally you just need to find third party testing rather than rely on the sales/marketing departments 16hz at meaningful spl is tough in any case, multiple capable subs are generally involved. Hoffman's Iron Law does apply, tho.

 

[kemmler3D]

I just get tired of the almost car audio level of misleading junk most subwoofer makers in particular offer.

JL have always offered pretty reasonable specs, and Monoprice have done so on their premium Monolith line.

But for a company like ELAC to offer specs like: "Anechoic 18 Hz, In Room 14 Hz" is worthless. The Fs doesn't magically change in a room

Their Dual Reference subs are powerful, but when you dig deeper, they have pretty sharp rolloff below 20 Hz. So at 16 Hz they might not be louder than a KEF KF92.
Unfortunately we will never know unless we buy them.

For hone theater addicts much of this is irrelevant. They can put vibrators under their seats and hire moving companies to relocate their 150 KG subs. I want something around 50 to 75 pounds that I can move myself.

I like decent movie performance but I'm a lifelong audiophile and want to be able to distinguish between pipe organs playing close to 16 Hz.

Based for instance on the replies from Rythmik I would disable their rumble filter and instead use a digital Butterworth filter at 48 dB per octave at 14 Hz on the input. This would achieve the response curve I want, protect them from the EOT soundtrack and still give decent pipe organ response. And this would likely cost around $350 for a stereo device that could handle two subs with XLR cables.

And the lack of figures on maximum output together with distortion are seldom published except by JL.

Indeed some of JL's speakers seem less competitive unless you look at the detailed specs with both output and distortion listed.

As for less costly brands, you typically get a lot of "frequency response" curves at around 80 dB.

So if you turn up the volume they will either distort horribly or fade into the background or both.

IMO start with measurements and then work your way to a decision - as you've noticed, starting either with random opinions online or subjective reviews just sends you on a long journey back to where you started. If the sub hasn't been independently measured then don't put it on your list for consideration, easy.

Speaking from experience, even if a speaker manufacturer wants to share real data, it's hard. An honest speaker company faces two big problems when it comes to sharing measurements:

1. Very few of their customers understand measurements
2. Most of their competitors are lying about measurements to some extent

This creates a situation where publishing real measurements feels like a major liability. Your customers will look at your truthful numbers, compare them to the competition's fake numbers, and buy from the competition. They mostly don't understand measurements anyway, so the truthfulness and accuracy of your numbers is lost on them, they can't tell the difference between yours and the lying competition. So unless you happen to know your customers are particularly sophisticated, you don't play that game.

Now, hopefully sites like ASR will change this over time. There are thousands of people looking at this site for advice. So maybe more brands will realize their customers understand measurements, or will at least seek out someone who does.

 

[JimA84]

Yes, the Harvard MBA ideology is a major obstacle as you state.

But if you consider things like a trombone is often quoted as 110dB and a traditional pipe organ with 16 Hz pipes is powered by the organist's feet, it seems like it should be possible to produce a high fidelity music system that can accurately reproduce such natural instruments without a 10,000 WRMS amplifier and 36 inch drivers.

I used to own a pair of 1961 vintage DuKane Ionovac Duk-30 speakers that would reproduce flat 30 to 25,000 Hz at pretty loud volume with a 15 WPC amplifier.

The technology exists, it's just finding a company that isn't managed by Harvard MBAs and a customer base sufficiently knowledgeable and tasteful to appreciate it.

Over the typical car stereo mentality of 135 dB with a Fs of 85 Hz.

I am not entirely satisfied with JL's and Monoprice's product selection, but they are honest and post very detailed specs on output, frequency response and distortion levels.

Virtually no other manufacturers publish specs like these two do.

If I buy a product from either of these companies I can be pretty confident in the expected performance in any real world application.

I just wish they would make something more along the lines of the KEF KF92 which is clearly oriented more toward high fidelity music than shaking the neighbor's paintings off the walls while watching End of Tomorrow.