High Energy Density Lithium Sulphur Battery Development

[Wombat]

Wind turbines require 1,000 times more land than a nuclear power station, about 500 more times than natural gas. Offshore turbines have proven too expensive to be useful. There has been a huge decrease in coal use in the USA due to the availability of cheap natural gas. This switch was accomplished entirely by market forces. What I don't want is to see trillions more spent on subsidies while electricity prices triple. So far $3.5 trillion has been spent on subsidies for wind and solar with the result being about 2% of the world's power portfolio converted. It doesn't take long to run out of money. Power prices in Germany are 3 times the US average due to renewable subsidies.

The last few years of O&G US subsidies:
https://www.rollingstone.com/politi...ubsidies-pentagon-spending-imf-report-833035/

How much more over the last 100plus years, including international coups, wars, stock market manipulation, landholder enticements, railroads, pipelines, military stockpiles, mine landscape restoration, ground-water contamination, wildlife and environment impact, oil-spill clean-ups, etc?

Ron, have you seem to have ignored the other side of the coin re subsidies?

 

[Frank Dernie]

Quite a few histories now of Tesla's being used as taxi vehicles. Nothing other than supercharged, and racking up lots of miles. Several reports on 150,000 miles and some over 200,000 on the original batteries.

Most owners only charge them to 80%. You can ask for more including 100% if you are going to travel on a trip. Your phone app will nag you if you specify a time for it to be charged 100% if you don't drive it quickly after that. The 100% charge isn't so bad as long as you do that and then discharge it. It is letting it sit fully charged which is bad. Along with discharging beyond 20%. I would expect those using the Tesla home charging which is much slower charging rates would have even longer battery life.

I would consider battery replacement at 150k or 200k miles the same as engine replacement/rebuild at those distances. Modern engines can last longer than that of course when well cared for, but it seems likely the batteries may as well.

https://electrek.co/2018/07/17/tesla-model-s-holds-up-400000-miles-3-years/

https://www.engadget.com/2018/04/16/tesla-battery-packs-live-longer/

I know about the high mileage in a short time as a taxi. This has been the case even with ordinary hybrids for 15 years or so.
It is low mileage with simple chemical deterioration over 6 years which ruins it for me. I have a car which has done 25,000 miles in 23 years. If it had been electric it would have needed new batteries once or twice during my ownership just because of the chemical deterioration with age.
As I wrote earlier, electric cars make sense for high mileage users who change car fairly often.
I am the polar opposite of that.

I also don't like any of the Teslas.

 

[Soniclife]

As I wrote earlier, electric cars make sense for high mileage users who change car fairly often.
I am the polar opposite of that.

When you worked this out did you calculate the break point where the optimum fuel changes?

 

[Frank Dernie]

When you worked this out did you calculate the break point where the optimum fuel changes?

No. As in the case of whether to fit solar cells to the roof there were two considerations, the cost saving and tha "gadget quotient". This is sadly the case in almost all my purchases so I am an uncomfortable blend of subjective/objective...
My concern is simply that the battery life (in years, not miles) is unknown and battery development continues apace so now is probably too soon to buy for me.
Mind you the i-Pace was stupendous and I want it still - so the gadget quotient hasn't lost out completely yet.

 

[Ron Texas]

@Wombat rather than waste my time jousting with you, I will listen to music this morning.

 

[jhaider]

@jhaider you are having a bad dream, wake up.

Gaslighting is unbecoming of a gentleman. Even though in broad strokes you’re correct, in that we all had a collective nightmare last weekend...

It’s a little amusing when people try to defame threats to the single most government-coddled industry (outside of arms) in human history with a word they perceive as an epithet, “regulation.”

That has the double effect of signaling fundamental misunderstanding of human history, and outing oneself as a sort of anarchist. Regulation generally is a concept ripe for rehabilitation. I recently heard a very illuminating interview by Chris Hayes of author Michael Lewis (Moneyball, etc). They discuss government as a civilizational risk management tool. It’s worth a listen. One link: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/msnbc/why-is-this-happening/e/60354779?autoplay=true

 

[Not Insane]

If one in five of these battery breakthroughs made it out of the lab in just the last 10 years we'd already have Tesla's with 1000 mile range using batteries so small and/or inexpensive the price of a model 3 could be slashed $20,000. PLUS: everyone would have a solar panel over their garage for cheap which could supply all the needed power for their car due to solar power advances.

I want an electric car that comes out of the factory with a lifetime charge.

 

[Ron Texas]

@jhaider I will not dignify your nonsense by replying to it.

 

[Soniclife]

No. As in the case of whether to fit solar cells to the roof there were two considerations, the cost saving and the "gadget quotient". This is sadly the case in almost all my purchases so I am an uncomfortable blend of subjective/objective...

Refreshingly honest, we all make flawed decisions, most people just make up some rational to fit their decision.

Mind you the i-Pace was stupendous and I want it still - so the gadget quotient hasn't lost out completely yet.

I struggle to get my head around spending that much on a car, when you can get very nice ones for half that money, and they are unlikely to arrive on the corporate discount list anytime soon.

 

[scott wurcer]

PLUS: everyone would have a solar panel over their garage for cheap which could supply all the needed power for their car due to solar power advances.

You can't beat physics, solar panels are typically rated at the solar insolation at the equator under perfect conditions (~1000W/sq-m). You can download a measured insolation map from the USGS for your location. Typical efficiency IIRC now is 15-18% on top of that. There are very expensive compound semiconductor cells that do 40%, the theoretical maximum efficiency is well below 100%. If you roll the numbers home charging of your car is a roof of panels not a panel, and another bank of batteries unless you are exclusively a night person.

 

[Frank Dernie]

You can't beat physics, solar panels are typically rated at the solar insolation at the equator under perfect conditions (~1000W/sq-m). You can download a measured insolation map from the USGS for your location. Typical efficiency IIRC now is 15-18% on top of that. There are very expensive compound semiconductor cells that do 40%, the theoretical maximum efficiency is well below 100%. If you roll the numbers home charging of your car is a roof of panels not a panel, and another bank of batteries unless you are exclusively a night person.

I live in the UK. My solar cells paid for themselves in 6 ½ years. They peak at 3.25 kW and we get between 20kWh and sod all per day, depending on the weather. We sell it to the electricity supplier but use pretty well all of it ourselves.
Friends of ours with a farm on the Moray Firth (Scotland) have 3 500kW wind turbines which are very effective and earn them a fortune. The UK being an island in the North wind power is massively more hopeful than solar. I would have thought the US with its vast sunny desert areas would be splendid for solar power.

 

[scott wurcer]

I would have thought the US with its vast sunny desert areas would be splendid for solar power.

I was talking about the simple physics issue, you are not going to charge your car from a 150W panel especially if you don't do it during the day. Ironically there is virtually no solar installed in Florida and the electricity is very cheap. I can only imagine that there are no subsidies. We have friends in Germany and they told us that the grid was required to buy back their solar energy at 0.5$ US per kW-hr.(this might have ended) while here the utilities have a cost of 0.06$ per kW-hr. for the generation only.

Not trying to be a pain just curious, a quick check shows 1.5MW of wind turbine costs about 2M$ US fully installed, do you put up the money for this what is the arrangement.

 

[JJB70]

The argument about where does the electricity come from is a valid one, but even if you use thermal electricity ithink the arguments for EVs (and even brown hydrogen) are strong.

For one thing, local emissions still benefit hugely with all the attendant public health benefits. I think all the attention on climate change emissions tends to result in local pollution issues being lost. And automotive engines are not especially efficient because of the load cycle, compared to thermal plants which operate at pretty stable loads and can be tied into combined heat and power systems to boost efficiency way beyond anything you'll get from an automotive engine even at it's optimum load point. And they tend to have stringent emissions license requirements with continuous monitoring, emissions abatement etc.

Ultimately there is something of a chicken and egg scenario. If we wait for the grid to be fully clean before making a transition to EVs the transition will not happen for years. Doing it before that may mean that we still pollute as part of making electricity but at least the automotive transition is underway and many countries are making very good progress in decoupling electricity production from emissions.

And in all the environmental talk I personally would rather have an EV. The IPace is being mentioned a lot, I honestly can't think of any ICE powered car I would rather have. I think high performance EVs are nicer to drive, have stronger performance and for probably 95% of my driving range is already adequate and for the remaining 5% the sacrifice of better journey planning would be a fair price to pay for a much nicer car.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Not trying to be a pain just curious, a quick check shows 1.5MW of wind turbine costs about 2M$ US fully installed, do you put up the money for this what is the arrangement.

They funded it themselves. They grow malting barley for the Speyside Scotch whisky industry and this is a diversification that was a risk but has worked out well.

 

[Thomas savage]

Well I'm all in favour of improving batteries and on the other side of the coin improving the efficiency of the electric motor.

More and more of my tools are becoming battery operated rather than manual or having to link them up to a generator.

No Leads no having to bugger about with a heavy generator or having to bugger about getting petrol .

I'm not sure how having electric cars will work out giving the national Grid struggles to cope with the kettle's been put on at the end of EastEnders.

Battery operated hoovers sanding machines mixing drills... It all makes my job easier so I love it.

 

[Thomas savage]

I see the usual suspects are turning this simple topic into some herculean tug of war between ideologies or just a tug off.

Dull.

 

[Irrenarzt]

I used to be involved in LiS R&D back in the 90's. There were 2 "big" players in this game: PolyPlus and Moltech. Moltech folded up and some of the key players spun off into another project called Sion Power, and I think PolyPlus is still slowly working the problem. The main issue back then was the formation of dendritic fingers of lithium upon recharge/discharge that eventually punctured the separator and shorted out the battery. That was/is the real advantage of the lithium ion system as you were intercalating lithium ions, and did not need metal anodes. Metal has better numbers (higher current densities etc), but has its' own set of problems. This article sounds like the next generation of kids who did the math and want to make a run at this holy grail of electrode couples.

I wish them the best of luck. Battery enhancements are almost always evolutionary, not revolutionary.

 

[scott wurcer]

I see the usual suspects are turning this simple topic into some herculean tug of war between ideologies or just a tug off.

Dull.

Right, these threads on other forums usually end up closed fast. Science does not apply to such discussions.

I once was in a very progressive planned community, where we were large enough to contract directly with the grid at commercial rates (~0.1$ kW-hr.). We were offered the opportunity to fund green energy at the expense of one cent per kW-hr. more. A vicious debate ensued over several meetings as to whether we would fund wind or solar and it was never resolved.

 

[Thomas savage]

It is interesting, years ago guys at work would invest in tools . Now the they tend to invest in battery platforms rather than the tools themselves.

You can't make those platforms obsolete too quick else you piss a lot of guys off who then have to pay out for New tools and chargers.

So maybe there's commercial reasons for not taking things forward as quickly as possible.

 

[Blumlein 88]

You can't beat physics, solar panels are typically rated at the solar insolation at the equator under perfect conditions (~1000W/sq-m). You can download a measured insolation map from the USGS for your location. Typical efficiency IIRC now is 15-18% on top of that. There are very expensive compound semiconductor cells that do 40%, the theoretical maximum efficiency is well below 100%. If you roll the numbers home charging of your car is a roof of panels not a panel, and another bank of batteries unless you are exclusively a night person.

Yes, my post was sarcastic in regards to the hype on breakthroughs of battery and solar panel tech. Just for the reasons you enumerated here. Someone with a little grasp of the efficiency limits and solar influx will know some of this hype is ridiculous. You'd be surprised or perhaps not, when you explain these things to some people they just don't want to hear it. There are simple limits to solar. I'm rather optimistic on what can eventually be done with wide enough adoption, and the still lowering cost of solar panels. But that doesn't mean I'm crazy thinking I can throw up a couple panels and supply the electrical needs of my house and car.