High Energy Density Lithium Sulphur Battery Development

[Wombat]

A social concern is that those who cannot afford to install domestic solar systems or for those for whom the economics are marginal, and renters(landlords, at least on lower capital value properties see no reason to spend on it) end up paying more for their grid supply due to grid income dropping whilst grid costs remain steady.

 

[gikigill]

The University that is doing this research is just 15 mins from my house.

Monash has always been very good at research and a source of pride for all of Australia.

 

[MediumRare]

I was referring to a northern climate with no backup, a week of no sun at -10F with nothing but but electric heaters. There certainly are places where people can live without heat or AC . I had an off grid house in ME, if I didn't have gas for cooking and hot water I would have needed a massive increase in cells and batteries. If I wanted to stay in the winter and use electric heat I don't think my lot would have room for the necessary equipment.

I see. You definitely have to have the grid - or a massive battery - for supply leveling when it's dark or cloudy or for when you need peak consumption. But that excess capacity can make oodles of extra power to charge the batteries/give you grid credits on bright days. It all averages out as long as you can give & take when necessary.

 

[gvl]

If you can send electricity into the grid for a credit, and pull extra power from the grid when you need it, the whole grid is like a giant battery. So there's much less economic benefit from having a dedicated battery. That being said, some of the economics of EVs is to reuse the batteries after 6 to 7 years in the far-less demanding residential application for another 10-15 years. That lowers the effective cost of the battery for both portions of its life.

The symmetry of the credit, or rather the lack thereof, can make batteries more economically viable. There is a trend in California lobbied by utilities to make solar less attractive by making it effectively asymmetric, so the batteries are getting more traction even for grid-tied systems. That said I don't think you can make an economic case for installing one here today, but if the trend continues who knows.

 

[MediumRare]

The symmetry of the credit, or rather the lack thereof, can make batteries more economically viable. There has been a trend in California to make solar less attractive by making it effectively asymmetric, so the batteries are getting more traction even for grid-tied systems. That said I don't think you can make an economic case for installing one here, but if the trend continues who knows.

The best place to store energy is at grid scale - homeowners can pay for their use of the grid storage (bandwith charge) and it should always be cheaper than having distributed storage. It will also lower the overall cost of grid electricity by reducing the need for expensive peaker capacity. The exception might be using an EV for storage, The excess capacity will be useful on the rare long trips, but most of the time it will buffer supply for nights. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_energy_storage

 

[gvl]

The best place to store energy is at grid scale - homeowners can pay for their use of the grid storage (bandwith charge) and it should always be cheaper than having distributed storage. It will also lower the overall cost of grid electricity by reducing the need for expensive peaker capacity. The exception might be using an EV for storage, The excess capacity will be useful on the rare long trips, but most of the time it will buffer supply for nights. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_energy_storage

Yes in principle but depending on the greed of local utilities and corrupt governments it may not always work out that way.

 

[scott wurcer]

I see. You definitely have to have the grid

That's the rub who pays for the grid and its management? I have a friend whose brother works for a major grid provider, solar and wind are unpredictable while hydroelectric and fossil are turned off and on easily. This causes a lot of problems managing usage, an issue few realize.
IMO the lack of funding for research in safe nuclear power is the great tragedy of our time. Something that dooms our children and their children to unnecessary suffering.

 

[gikigill]

That's the rub who pays for the grid and its management? I have a friend whose brother works for a major grid provider, solar and wind are unpredictable while hydroelectric and fossil are turned off and on easily. This causes a lot of problems managing usage, an issue few realize.
IMO the lack of funding for research in safe nuclear power is the great tragedy of our time. Something that dooms our children and their children to unnecessary suffering.

Wouldn't Gen 4 nuclear be safer or does it still have some time to be perfected?

 

[Sal1950]

It's amazing how quickly tradespeople have embraced the Li-ion powered tools and lined up to an exclusive "system". Apart from the freedom from dragging long extension cords across a jobsite and all the "safety" issues with that, they are a very expensive and short lived, inferior solution. Go to a recyclers and look at the hundreds of "skins" and crates full of prematurely failed battery packs. It's simply the Gillette razor/handle trick for tools.

The last impact driver I bought was a 240V (with a cord- old skool) for our deck. There simply isn't the energy in Li-Ion to put in thousands of screws into hardwood. I'm down to one or two cordless tool devices and they won't be replaced. My corded gear lasts for many decades and never needs charging.

As for the battery "revolution" in garden care- it's a joke to anyone who has more than a postage stamp sized block of land. Two full isles at our big-box hardware store and it makes me laugh to see mums and dads flocking to the "latest" battery powered junk on a Saturday morning when the garden needs doing.

You hit the nail on the head John, I quit buying battery operated tools quite some time back. Not only for the reasons you mentioned but unless you keep them on the charger all the time, when the average home owner needs it the batteries are dead when you go to use them. All I need do is take a few minutes to run a cord and my tool is ready to go, at full power, for as long as I need it to run.
I have a AC powered impact wrench that's so old I don't remember when I got it. If I need to change a tire on a car or whathaveyou its ready to go at a blink of a eye. No battery charge or air line needed.

 

[gvl]

With a little discipline around storing li-ion batteries around half-charged they should last for years in a typical household duty cycle. The cordless driver with li-ion is one of my best tool purchases. The charger can fill the battery in about 20 minutes. With 2-3 batteries I can work all day rotating them, not that I ever do.

 

[Wombat]

I gave up on NiCad because they were as @Sal1950 describes.

However I have some Ryobi 18Plus tools and find the Lithium-ion batteries hold their charge well between occasional use for handyman jobs.

 

[Frank Dernie]

In Illinois the utilities are required to give a 100% credit for what you put into the system, so for the year you end up with a $0 bill. In effect, they're paying about $0.11 per kWH. But you can't earn net revenue under a residential program.

Here there was a government scheme to encourage fitting solar cells. The utility company has to pay you for all the electricity you generate, as long as the installation is approved. The payment rate was dropped years ago and the cost of an approved installation went down too once installers realised they couldn't profit as much from the installation any more, the company that installed ours is no longer in business.
We are fine, the utility company pays for the power our installation genetates but we us all of it.
OTOH I think we pay £0.19/kWh for power plus a connection fee, so much more expensive to buy than the USA.

 

[gvl]

so much more expensive to buy than the USA.

Depends, this is the kind rate that my utility now forces solar customers to. With net-metering you will be selling your excess solar energy at 23c and then buy back at 30/37c 4-9pm.

 

[RayDunzl]

Tampa Residential Usage Rates:

https://www.tampaelectric.com/files/ratechanges/resratesinsert.pdf

 

[gvl]

Tampa Residential Usage Rates:

https://www.tampaelectric.com/files/ratechanges/resratesinsert.pdf

View attachment 45258

With that kind of pricing solar has to be a luxury item.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Depends, this is the kind rate that my utility now forces solar customers to. With net-metering you will be selling your excess solar energy at 23c and then buy back at 30/37c 4-9pm.

View attachment 45255

Wow, they buy mine at £0.53/kWh and I buy at £0.19/kWh any extra I need.

 

[RayDunzl]

With that kind of pricing solar has to be a luxury item.

A few years ago I investigated solar, it was more expensive then, I declined, and took a similar amount of money and invested it in shares of the utility. Dividends pay most of the bill, and the share price is up.

Since then they've converted some units from coal to gas, and now they're building solar farms nearby, so...

 

[MediumRare]

A few years ago I investigated solar, it was more expensive then, I declined, and took a similar amount of money and invested it in shares of the utility. Dividends pay most of the bill, and the share price is up.

That makes a lot of sense. However, with the market at a high, interest rates at a low, and solar costs now much lower, it might make sense to use that stock to buy your system. Completely depends on your local situation and your rates are quite low. With 2,925 solar hours and a better angle than Chicago, you're in a good place, physically. Incentives are another issue. After incentives my IRR is 21%, tax free. There's no better investment of $20k (60% refunded within 9 months) I can find.

 

[mhardy6647]

If you can send electricity into the grid for a credit, and pull extra power from the grid when you need it, the whole grid is like a giant battery. So there's much less economic benefit from having a dedicated battery. That being said, some of the economics of EVs is to reuse the batteries after 6 to 7 years in the far-less demanding residential application for another 10-15 years. That lowers the effective cost of the battery for both portions of its life.

With the caveat that when the grid goes down, so does one's power.
That I think is the driver for folks adding batteries, Tesla Power Walls, or just EVs (or plug in hybrids) to store excess juice from their PV arrays for those times when the power goes out.

Since ours is a net metering system, we're in the same boat. Fortunately, we don't lose power very often. I have a fairly fancy (read: fairly expensive) Honda inverter jenny-rator for those rare but nonzero times when we do (lose power).

 

[gvl]

With the caveat that when the grid goes down, so does one's power.
That I think is the driver for folks adding batteries, Tesla Power Walls, or just EVs (or plug in hybrids) to store excess juice from their PV arrays for those times when the power goes out.

Since ours is a net metering system, we're in the same boat. Fortunately, we don't lose power very often. I have a fairly fancy (read: fairly expensive) Honda inverter jenny-rator for those rare but nonzero times when we do (lose power).

Thing is, unless you go overboard with the solar size and batteries for much $$$$, the power reserve backup that batteries provide is unreliable and insufficient. You can't run any serious loads from it, some lights, TV and the fridge maybe, that is if it wasn't raining that day.