High Energy Density Lithium Sulphur Battery Development

[Blumlein 88]

I live in the UK. My solar cells paid for themselves in 6 ½ years. They peak at 3.25 kW and we get between 20kWh and sod all per day, depending on the weather. We sell it to the electricity supplier but use pretty well all of it ourselves.
Friends of ours with a farm on the Moray Firth (Scotland) have 3 500kW wind turbines which are very effective and earn them a fortune. The UK being an island in the North wind power is massively more hopeful than solar. I would have thought the US with its vast sunny desert areas would be splendid for solar power.

Some areas are good for solar. Where I live isn't too bad. But the electric utility company has the state gov't in its pocket. A few years back they passed a law so I have to register my solar installation (even if not connected to the grid), and pay a monthly fee to the power company. If I'm producing an excess during the daytime they'll pay me 20% of what they sell the electricity for per kw/h. They've accounted for it so the payoff on solar would currently be at least 20 years. Yet I could generate lots more power than you could in the UK. Of course electrical power is cheap here. '

The electric power company is building some large PEV arrays finally. Even that they tried to do under-handed. The president of the state Public Service Commission (which regulates utilities) purchased for cheap a several hundred acre tract of land. A year later he was going to lease it to the electric company to build their PEV array upon. The lease in 10 years would have been several times more than he paid for the land. Surprisingly the ethics commission told them they couldn't do that. I think that surprised everyone.

The local electrical utility provides good service and does so at very low rates. In the last decade as they saw PEV could be a threat to their monopoly they've been moving to keep themselves as the monopoly gatekeeper to power. They'll probably do a good job and do it more efficiently than scattered homeowner installations. It is a bit galling they way the act is if no one else has a right to create power in the state.

 

[MediumRare]

I was talking about the simple physics issue, you are not going to charge your car from a 150W panel especially if you don't do it during the day. Ironically there is virtually no solar installed in Florida and the electricity is very cheap. I can only imagine that there are no subsidies. We have friends in Germany and they told us that the grid was required to buy back their solar energy at 0.5$ US per kW-hr.(this might have ended) while here the utilities have a cost of 0.06$ per kW-hr. for the generation only.

Not trying to be a pain just curious, a quick check shows 1.5MW of wind turbine costs about 2M$ US fully installed, do you put up the money for this what is the arrangement.

In Illinois the utilities are required to give a 100% credit for what you put into the system, so for the year you end up with a $0 bill. In effect, they're paying about $0.11 per kWH. But you can't earn net revenue under a residential program.

 

[restorer-john]

It is interesting, years ago guys at work would invest in tools . Now the they tend to invest in battery platforms rather than the tools themselves.

You can't make those platforms obsolete too quick else you piss a lot of guys off who then have to pay out for New tools and chargers.

So maybe there's commercial reasons for not taking things forward as quickly as possible.

It's amazing how quickly tradespeople have embraced the Li-ion powered tools and lined up to an exclusive "system". Apart from the freedom from dragging long extension cords across a jobsite and all the "safety" issues with that, they are a very expensive and short lived, inferior solution. Go to a recyclers and look at the hundreds of "skins" and crates full of prematurely failed battery packs. It's simply the Gillette razor/handle trick for tools.

The last impact driver I bought was a 240V (with a cord- old skool) for our deck. There simply isn't the energy in Li-Ion to put in thousands of screws into hardwood. I'm down to one or two cordless tool devices and they won't be replaced. My corded gear lasts for many decades and never needs charging.

As for the battery "revolution" in garden care- it's a joke to anyone who has more than a postage stamp sized block of land. Two full isles at our big-box hardware store and it makes me laugh to see mums and dads flocking to the "latest" battery powered junk on a Saturday morning when the garden needs doing.

 

[Wes]

don't forget that the utility still has to maintain the grid, even when you have PV on your roof

 

[Thomas savage]

It's amazing how quickly tradespeople have embraced the Li-ion powered tools and lined up to an exclusive "system". Apart from the freedom from dragging long extension cords across a jobsite and all the "safety" issues with that, they are a very expensive and short lived, inferior solution. Go to a recyclers and look at the hundreds of "skins" and crates full of prematurely failed battery packs. It's simply the Gillette razor/handle trick for tools.

The last impact driver I bought was a 240V (with a cord- old skool) for our deck. There simply isn't the energy in Li-Ion to put in thousands of screws into hardwood. I'm down to one or two cordless tool devices and they won't be replaced. My corded gear lasts for many decades and never needs charging.

As for the battery "revolution" in garden care- it's a joke to anyone who has more than a postage stamp sized block of land. Two full isles at our big-box hardware store and it makes me laugh to see mums and dads flocking to the "latest" battery powered junk on a Saturday morning when the garden needs doing.

Well theres no power to the plots at work so battery's are great. No electricity, no heaters .. it's like the dark ages on UK housing developments.

If your at home and have a static workstation and or access to mains power it's a different story.

 

[March Audio]

No. As in the case of whether to fit solar cells to the roof there were two considerations, the cost saving and tha "gadget quotient". This is sadly the case in almost all my purchases so I am an uncomfortable blend of subjective/objective...
My concern is simply that the battery life (in years, not miles) is unknown and battery development continues apace so now is probably too soon to buy for me.
Mind you the i-Pace was stupendous and I want it still - so the gadget quotient hasn't lost out completely yet.

Just my experience. Being in Oz we have an abundance of sun when it's not blocked out by smoke. So solar makes a lot of sense.

The largest domestic system that is allowed is 5kW, although you can have more cells so it plateaus out at max for longer. We have 6kW of cells on the roof. Mid summer we typically generate around 42kWh per day but I have seen 45kWh. Mid winter it will fall to around 25kWh per day.

Electricity cost is about 22c/kWh. Our excess is sold back to the grid at about 7c/kWh. Not exactly subsidised . Our electricity bills are now probably 1/4 of what they were with payback time of install costs being around 4 years. Its a no brainer economically and environmentally.

Battery systems still don't make sense. Too expensive and too long a ROI.

 

[scott wurcer]

In Illinois the utilities are required to give a 100% credit for what you put into the system, so for the year you end up with a $0 bill. In effect, they're paying about $0.11 per kWH. But you can't earn net revenue under a residential program.

This is where I don't see the numbers add up. I'm interested in a 100% electric household everything period heat, AC, cooking, hot water, etc.

 

[restorer-john]

Battery systems still don't make sense. Too expensive and too long a ROI.

What's so wrong with lead-acid for domestic storage? It is cheap, has a long life, can do phenomenal currents for peak demands, is modular, easily scalable and virtually 100% recyclable. The figures are around 99% of all lead acid batteries are now recycled.

For Australia, why aren't there outside mini "sheds" that sit a alongside the side of the house attached to the PV and inverter?

We don't have a problem with low temperatures, freezing like the northern hemisphere, why is it Lithium or nothing?

 

[March Audio]

What's so wrong with lead-acid for domestic storage? It is cheap, has a long life, can do phenomenal currents for peak demands, is modular, easily scalable and virtually 100% recyclable. The figures are around 99% of all lead acid batteries are now recycled.

For Australia, why aren't there outside mini "sheds" that sit a alongside the side of the house attached to the PV and inverter?

We don't have a problem with low temperatures, freezing like the northern hemisphere, why is it Lithium or nothing?

Yes I have thought about this myself. I think probably the main isuue is energy density. You are going to need a lot of "car batteries" which are physically large. Rate of charge might also be an issue.

 

[Blumlein 88]

What's so wrong with lead-acid for domestic storage? It is cheap, has a long life, can do phenomenal currents for peak demands, is modular, easily scalable and virtually 100% recyclable. The figures are around 99% of all lead acid batteries are now recycled.

For Australia, why aren't there outside mini "sheds" that sit a alongside the side of the house attached to the PV and inverter?

We don't have a problem with low temperatures, freezing like the northern hemisphere, why is it Lithium or nothing?

When I looked at that here, they just don't have a long enough life. The cost of periodic replacement about equaled what energy they stored. Economically you could have just paid for the juice and saved the trouble of the batteries. Lithium stores more and lasts longer for more energy storage over its life.

 

[restorer-john]

When I looked at that here, they just don't have a long enough life. The cost of periodic replacement about equaled what energy they stored. Economically you could have just paid for the juice and saved the trouble of the batteries. Lithium stores more and lasts longer for more energy storage over its life.

OK. I stand corrected. My issue with lithium ion is the increase in internal resistance over their relatively short life. 7 years or so isn't it for 30-50% typical loss of capacity or has it improved significantly and I'm out of date?

 

[March Audio]

Found this

 

[Wombat]

FWIW

https://www.choice.com.au/home-impr...ar/buying-guides/battery-storage-buying-guide

https://www.choice.com.au/home-improvement/energy-saving/solar/articles/solar-battery-tria

 

[Blumlein 88]

OK. I stand corrected. My issue with lithium ion is the increase in internal resistance over their relatively short life. 7 years or so isn't it for 30-50% typical loss of capacity or has it improved significantly and I'm out of date?

I don't know about years. Some measurements of the effect using 100 % charge and depletion to 0% and repeat showed only 15% increase of internal resistance after 900 cycles vs new.

 

[MediumRare]

This is where I don't see the numbers add up. I'm interested in a 100% electric household everything period heat, AC, cooking, hot water, etc.

Could you clarify what the issue is? I believe a lot of people can do what you you're aiming for.

 

[Doodski]

This is where I don't see the numbers add up. I'm interested in a 100% electric household everything period heat, AC, cooking, hot water, etc.

Underground home with solar and calculated heat gains and loses. It works and can be very comfortable too for both hot and cold climates.

 

[MediumRare]

What's so wrong with lead-acid for domestic storage?

If you can send electricity into the grid for a credit, and pull extra power from the grid when you need it, the whole grid is like a giant battery. So there's much less economic benefit from having a dedicated battery. That being said, some of the economics of EVs is to reuse the batteries after 6 to 7 years in the far-less demanding residential application for another 10-15 years. That lowers the effective cost of the battery for both portions of its life.

 

[MediumRare]

Found this - initial cost

Li-ion batteries now cost vehicle OEMs under $100/kWh for cells and under $200/kWh for full temperature managed packs. The cost is expected to drop by 50% in the next few years, after which the next technology will come in with costs even lower and 4x the density.

 

[scott wurcer]

Could you clarify what the issue is? I believe a lot of people can do what you you're aiming for.

I was referring to a northern climate with no backup, a week of no sun at -10F with nothing but but electric heaters. There certainly are places where people can live without heat or AC . I had an off grid house in ME, if I didn't have gas for cooking and hot water I would have needed a massive increase in cells and batteries. If I wanted to stay in the winter and use electric heat I don't think my lot would have room for the necessary equipment.

 

[scott wurcer]

Undergound home with solar and calculated heat gains and loses. It works and can be very comfortable too for both hot and cold climates.

Of course that's not for everyone.