Has DSP turned us into audio neurotics? [rant]

[Keith_W]

Keith's Law of hi-fi forums: any debate will devolve into cars.

It is similar to Godwin's Law of political discussion, any discussion of politics devolves into Nazis or Hitler.

 

[MattHooper]

Keith's Law of hi-fi forums: any debate will devolve into cars.

It is similar to Godwin's Law of political discussion, any discussion of politics devolves into Nazis or Hitler.

I’ve PROPOSED a similar ….LAW

 

[Sal1950]

I can't imagine anything worse than a HiFi show. I much prefer to spend my time, energy and money on going to gigs.

Listening to a bunch of gear, I am unlikely to buy, with music that I have no interest in, played out of context in hotel rooms has absolutely no appeal.

Your call, If you happen to be in the market for new speakers or something like that
it's a good place to be able to hear and see them, since retail dealers are few and far between in todays world.
Hi Fi shows are more a social event than anything, a place much the same as these forums and other web based gathering spots where you can BS
with folks of like minds or maybe even have the opportunity to choke someone whose been a real stone in your shoe for sometime. LOL

I think accuracy is important, but too much emphasis on ultimate accuracy is not as important as some try to make out, for enjoying music anyway. It’s possible that one could do in room measurements and see flaws and become obsessive about trying to fix it. This obsession could just lead to disappointment and frustration and away from the main reason we have these systems, to enjoy their music.

That's true and we see it happen on occasion. But that customer at least has a fairly solid base to stand on, if it measured better he hasn't just purchased even worse sound than he sold. He's either stayed neutral or moved forward. And it's highly likely the product wasn't rediculosly expensive. Our people may not have made any big move forward in Sound Quality, but they didn't get swindled or hosed either.

But IMHO we see it carried to an extreme by subjectives many times beyond that I've ever witnessed here or at any objectivist gathering in my experience.
Just for kicks I'm signed up to the US Audio Mart newsletter that comes out every Friday. Every week I'm absolutely amazed by the amount of $5 and $6 figure gear that is bought and sold there. (Come check out what's new this week). I perfectly realize that there are many people on this earth with FAR more money than any common sense could dictate. While over there you can easily witness people spending $100,000 to $300,000+ on speakers and amps only to sell them at a 40 - 60% loss within six months to a year or two. Why, because the "sounds good (or bad) to me" cult has them by the balls, chasing what they think they hear with no solid evidence to guarantee they have actually moved forward or backward in the accuracy to the source from their recent purchase. Maybe a great line of marketing BS in the latest Audiophool mag-website has either convinced him that new $300,000 turntable will take him to Nirvana, or some smooth as silk salesperson at the local retail audiohole really sold him on that new gold plated $400,000 Dartzeel amp. (even Mikey likes it, ROTF).

Bottom line, if you lay your cash on accurate gear, that is what you'll get.
Otherwise it's all a roll of the dice.

 

[Todd68]

Your call, If you happen to be in the market for new speakers or something like that
it's a good place to be able to hear and see them, since retail dealers are few and far between in todays world.
Hi Fi shows are more a social event than anything, a place much the same as these forums and other web based gathering spots where you can BS
with folks of like minds or maybe even have the opportunity to choke someone whose been a real stone in your shoe for sometime. LOL


That's true and we see it happen on occasion. But that customer at least has a fairly solid base to stand on, if it measured better he hasn't just purchased even worse sound than he sold. He's either stayed neutral or moved forward. And it's highly likely the product wasn't rediculosly expensive. Our people may not have made any big move forward in Sound Quality, but they didn't get swindled or hosed either.

But IMHO we see it carried to an extreme by subjectives many times beyond that I've ever witnessed here or at any objectivist gathering in my experience.
Just for kicks I'm signed up to the US Audio Mart newsletter that comes out every Friday. Every week I'm absolutely amazed by the amount of $5 and $6 figure gear that is bought and sold there. (Come check out what's new this week). I perfectly realize that there are many people on this earth with FAR more money than any common sense could dictate. While over there you can easily witness people spending $100,000 to $300,000+ on speakers and amps only to sell them at a 40 - 60% loss within six months to a year or two. Why, because the "sounds good (or bad) to me" cult has them by the balls, chasing what they think they hear with no solid evidence to guarantee they have actually moved forward or backward in the accuracy to the source from their recent purchase. Maybe a great line of marketing BS in the latest Audiophool mag-website has either convinced him that new $300,000 turntable will take him to Nirvana, or some smooth as silk salesperson at the local retail audiohole really sold him on that new gold plated $400,000 Dartzeel amp. (even Mikey likes it, ROTF).

Bottom line, if you lay your cash on accurate gear, that is what you'll get.
Otherwise it's all a roll of the dice.

I noticed that too. I mean if they can’t be satisfied with gear that cost as much as a house, they must be really clueless about the technical side of things. And instead of addressing room issues, they think that if they just buy something more expensive or “better” that will fix it.

And also, I think some just like to try different gear, and may never be satisfied or done, it’s part of the enjoyment for them. Everyone in this hobby gets a little excited when they decide to purchase that next set of speakers or whatever.

 

[UprightCitizen]

Really?

Hanging out with different audiophile friends, enjoying their different systems, going to audio shows to hear all sorts of gear that’s interesting and that you’ll never own is cumbersome? I think it’s fun.

There’s all sorts of ways in which we audiophiles indulge ourselves. Some people enjoy building, DIY speakers and amplifiers, this place is full of people who like to dive into the measurements of all sorts of gear, whatever floats your boat.

Quite a few of us own more than one system or more than one pair of speakers, because it’s fun. Audiophiles are attracted to audio gear.

And none of that is at odds with enjoying the music.

Yeah, I don't know... I don't do that. I discover new music all the time though, I go to live shows. I like to get in to the technical stuff, and I am annoyed that people in general for whom music is such a big part of life totally neglect their systems. But that's it. I'd like to do more diy stuff some day, but there's much stuff I want to do and so little time. Going to audio trade shows and similar is not high up on the list.

 

[Snarfie]

I can't imagine anything worse than a HiFi show. I much prefer to spend my time, energy and money on going to gigs.

Listening to a bunch of gear, I am unlikely to buy, with music that I have no interest in, played out of context in hotel rooms has absolutely no appeal.

+1

Precise my experience to. But it is odd atleast the shows i go to. At such Hifi show i ask who does buy your equipment we are talking about atleast >25.000,- full audio systems Audiophiles i ask ? Answer high number of people that have tax reasons or black/ I legal money that before year-end must be spend. We are talking about plumbers, carpenters, contractors, dentist list go's on. Some how i now some of these people mostly acquaintances or former customers in the financial risk enviroment like option traders, market makers who have a seat at the exchange. They love audio an there acquired an expensive system but really they are not (most of them) Audiohiles that spend time on ASR for the best possible sound, room treathment or DSP. Guess 90% of them have to deal with WAF.

 

[MattHooper]

Yeah, I don't know... I don't do that. I discover new music all the time though, I go to live shows.

We all do that. All of us here love music. What brings us together on a site like this is an additional interest in audio gear.

I like to get in to the technical stuff, and I am annoyed that people in general for whom music is such a big part of life totally neglect their systems. But that's it.

A non-audiophile friend of mine and his wife wanted to buy some new speakers, and since they felt they would appreciate better sound they asked my help. I found them a secondhand pair of KEF LS50s. They were totally thrilled with the upgrade in sound.
When I visit I go into audiophile cringe mode: they have the LS50: essentially sat on the floor I think on a brick or something. “ maybe we’ll get some stands someday but probably not.” Still, the speakers manage to sound surprisingly good and are still a huge upgrade on the sound they had before.

I'd like to do more diy stuff some day,

Meanwhile, I would sooner jump off a bridge than spend time on DIY audio equipment. Just don’t have the aptitude or interest for it.
But I totally admire those that do!

but there's much stuff I want to do and so little time. Going to audio trade shows and similar is not high up on the list.

Cool. I’ve always liked manipulating sound (which is why I ended up doing it for a living as a sound effects designer), and that interest in “ different Sonic experiences” carries over to my interest in audio gear. I’m always fascinated by how different gear designs can produce different Sonic experiences. I like variety.

 

[Miguelón]

As I’m actually learning about acoustics, a room is a continuous pressure field, so tuning till the “perfection” the DSP is impossible: temperature and pressure changes, introducing new furniture or just moving some centimeters away from sweet spot will throw the job over the window.

I prefer to use dip switches on my monitors than DSP, to improve close walls and corners increase in energy, measurement shows a dip of about + 7 dB around 70 Hz, but I can live with that. But if I use PEQ to compensate that, I would stop there: they are a bunch of minor issues on the freq curve but is ok to tolerate them

 

[UprightCitizen]

We all do that. All of us here love music. What brings us together on a site like this is an additional interest in audio gear.



A non-audiophile friend of mine and his wife wanted to buy some new speakers, and since they felt they would appreciate better sound they asked my help. I found them a secondhand pair of KEF LS50s. They were totally thrilled with the upgrade in sound.
When I visit I go into audiophile cringe mode: they have the LS50: essentially sat on the floor I think on a brick or something. “ maybe we’ll get some stands someday but probably not.” Still, the speakers manage to sound surprisingly good and are still a huge upgrade on the sound they had before.



Meanwhile, I would sooner jump off a bridge than spend time on DIY audio equipment. Just don’t have the aptitude or interest for it.
But I totally admire those that do!



Cool. I’ve always liked manipulating sound (which is why I ended up doing it for a living as a sound effects designer), and that interest in “ different Sonic experiences” carries over to my interest in audio gear. I’m always fascinated by how different gear designs can produce different Sonic experiences. I like variety.

I don't know tbh, when reading posts on many "audiophile" forums I find myself question if the actual music is that important for a lot of people from time to time... and I even feel like the music some people play is stuff that they play just because it makes their systems sound good... but that's ok too, it's ok to enjoy the things. I often feel like my interest in audio reproduction is more of a mental exercise and curiosity. For example, I find it interresting to read about gear that I have no intention of buying since the things I already have is good enough for my use. But... I'm an electrical engineer, so I guess I have a leaning towards that stuff even though it will not change how I enjoy music.

However, I strongly feel that changing equipment to get different sound out of recordings is a backwards way to go about it. From my experience, a system with it's own very characteristic sound tend to make all recordings similar, masking the character of the actual recording.

 

[Tell]

As I’m actually learning about acoustics, a room is a continuous pressure field, so tuning till the “perfection” the DSP is impossible: temperature and pressure changes, introducing new furniture or just moving some centimeters away from sweet spot will throw the job over the window.

I prefer to use dip switches on my monitors than DSP, to improve close walls and corners increase in energy, measurement shows a dip of about + 7 dB around 70 Hz, but I can live with that. But if I use PEQ to compensate that, I would stop there: they are a bunch of minor issues on the freq curve but is ok to tolerate them

Of course you can't do everything with DSP, but using a DSP instead of your dip switches to fix the bass response (including that 70Hz dip) would be closer to perfection than not using it, so why not use it instead of just tolerating the errors you have?

 

[Miguelón]

Of course you can't do everything with DSP, but using a DSP instead of your dip switches to fix the bass response (including that 70Hz dip) would be closer to perfection than not using it, so why not use it instead of just tolerating the errors you have?

Theoretically yes, but in practice no: when applying DSP correction to the 70 Hz region sound worse to me than low shelving filter on the speaker (it gradually reduces from 1 kHz to 100Hz by achieving -4 dB at 100 Hz and lower).

But perhaps I can do better, my PEQ doesn’t allow smoother Q than 0.1

The errors I mentioned are more on the 400 Hz to 1 kHz region, but I tried some combinations with less success than the dip -4 dB LS

 

[MattHooper]

I don't know tbh, when reading posts on many "audiophile" forums I find myself question if the actual music is that important for a lot of people from time to time... and I even feel like the music some people play is stuff that they play just because it makes their systems sound good... but that's ok too, it's ok to enjoy the things.

It’s hard not to judge, but I do my best not to do these days.

A lot of audiophiles make a big deal about how “ it’s all about the music.” And whenever I see that I always think about my visit to a very dedicated but very wealthy audiophile’s loft.
He had extremely expensive speakers, extremely expensive amplifiers, expensive DAC and transport, and all sorts of tweaks, including python sized speaker cables snaking along the floor held up, of course, by cable lifters. After giving me a tour of the system, he said “ but I’m not like so many other audiophiles. I’m just all about the music.”

And I thought “ sure you are.”

I still think he was wrong. It was quite clear that it wasn’t “ all about the music” for him, given the enormous amount of time and attention he gave to audio gear.

But the thing is that doesn’t matter. The fact that he was that enthusiastic about various aspects of audio gear doesn’t for a moment mean he wasn’t as into music as any other music lover. He took me out to some New York clubs to watch live jazz, and he was clearly as swept up into the music as anybody could be.

And I think that’s a false dichotomy that has run through the audiophile community for a long time: it can’t be both. If you look like you were too much into the gear you risk not passing the purity test of “ not being about the music and losing sight of the music.”

So that’s the thing I like to keep in mind. People can walk and chew gum at the same time. You can be really interested in audio gear, and simultaneously be a huge music fan. They are not mutually exclusive.

 

[ace_xp2]

I admit I find that very odd. For one thing it would be like a car enthusiast not seeing the point of going to car shows. Or having no interest in other cars other than the one he owns.

But it’s even stranger than that; it would be like a car enthusiast saying he wouldn’t see the point of being able to drive different types of cars that he’s interested in. Like a car enthusiast who is only enthusiastic about one car in the world.

In the case of sound systems it’s like being a car enthusiast who gets to drive all sorts of different cool cars! Whether thats listening to system at friends places, or listening to Different interesting systems at my dealer, or going to an audio show and hearing all sorts of wild and exotic loudspeaker systems, to see what people are accomplishing. I mean, I suppose some audiophile Might buy a pair of KEF LS50s and never think about anything different again.

But if you were going to offer me a chance to listen to fascinating speaker designs, such as the MBL extreme omnidirectional speakers, to see what they have achieved, I’d say “ hell yes!”

Why would being interested in audio and sound reproduction, snd taking an interest in the various different engineering approaches be “ pointless?”
Do you find Amir’s interest in audio gear, which established the very site you are posting on, to be pointless?

I presume you’ve never attended an audio show with that be correct?

I am that car enthusiast! And audio enthusiast too.

Car guys are generally wankers, the only interest in hanging out with them lies in extracting information. And the internet is much more efficient for that. Same with cars themselves, I don't seek variety, I seek well done engineering. To me, that's what a car is about, engineering thought processes made reality.

I feel the exact same way about audio. Couldn't pay me to hang out with posters for a beer, but a few moments searching for cogent thoughts can generate value for far lower time investment.

 

[goat76]

But they do exist, the people who are way more interested in measuring and optimizing the audio gear than they are interested in listening to music. One guy I spoke to admitted that he was more interested in sound quality than the actual music, in a similar fashion as there are people who are way more interested in optimizing cars than actually driving them.

 

[MattHooper]

I am that car enthusiast! And audio enthusiast too.

Car guys are generally wankers, t

Funny how it’s always the other guys who are the wankers.

I feel the exact same way about audio. Couldn't pay me to hang out with posters for a beer, but a few moments searching for cogent thoughts can generate value for far lower time investment.

I have largely good impressions of other audiophiles. Lots of great times hanging out.
But then I don’t see other audiophiles as as means to an end, but its about being social and sharing experience, in what can be an otherwise solitary. Nothing wrong with different personalities.

What I see is that the mention of either ASR or tests and measurements in many forums raises an accusation that because we are interested in the scientific side of things, that we either don't or are not capable of enjoying music.

Exactly! Once you get into judging others about being into the music or not it goes both ways, and the same type of bogus accusations will come back at ASR.

 

[MattHooper]

But they do exist, the people who are way more interested in measuring and optimizing the audio gear than they are interested in listening to music. One guy I spoke to admitted that he was more interested in sound quality than the actual music, in a similar fashion as there are people who are way more interested in optimizing cars than actually driving them.

I agree, they exist. My point being, of course that it’s not mutually exclusive, and also how many people here would agree “ I’m not really into music that much?” So it’s almost always about characterizing “ the other audiophile.”

And to your point, when I’m feeling less generous, one of the most annoying things to me are equipment reviews that go on about
“ this loudspeaker let you hear every change in your upstream equipment. I found it highly revealing of cable swapping, different DACs and amplifiers!” Yeah I got admit that routing the wrong way and I think “ I don’t give a damn about that, evaluate how it plays music!”

On the other hand when my better angel has influence, I don’t feel in a position to judge any other audiophiles road to Bliss. If some mythical audio file existed who has only 10 albums to play over and over on his hundred thousand dollar system, if that’s the way his brain is configured to give him pleasure, fine with me.

 

[Tell]

Theoretically yes, but in practice no: when applying DSP correction to the 70 Hz region sound worse to me than low shelving filter on the speaker (it gradually reduces from 1 kHz to 100Hz by achieving -4 dB at 100 Hz and lower).

But perhaps I can do better, my PEQ doesn’t allow smoother Q than 0.1

The errors I mentioned are more on the 400 Hz to 1 kHz region, but I tried some combinations with less success than the dip -4 dB LS

A low shelving filter and a peaking filter at a specific frequency ain't doing the same thing though, so if you prefer your shelf turned down a bit might be because you're taming some big ugly mode at maybe 50Hz that messes with the sound. The best way of doing it imo is to use a DSP to make sure you have a flat response up to whatever frequency you dare and then start applying some gentle low and/or high shelf filters up or down to whatever you think sounds sweetest

 

[Descartes]

To all the septics and nay sayers it will come a time when Generative AI will deliver good sound without having to tweak it’ of course that will still be an option for us who are never satisfied

 

[Miguelón]

A low shelving filter and a peaking filter at a specific frequency ain't doing the same thing though, so if you prefer your shelf turned down a bit might be because you're taming some big ugly mode at maybe 50Hz that messes with the sound. The best way of doing it imo is to use a DSP to make sure you have a flat response up to whatever frequency you dare and then start applying some gentle low and/or high shelf filters up or down to whatever you think sounds sweetest

I agree, I was manipulating the PEQ for 2 hours until now… I believe I solved main problems, at least if my ears can tell anything after the listening session

 

[Keith_W]

Car guys are generally wankers, the only interest in hanging out with them lies in extracting information.

I am a member of the Porsche Club of Victoria. I notice there are 3 types of members: (1) rich wankers (2) motorsport enthusiasts (3) classic car enthusiasts. They are easy to spot, just look at their cars. The conversation is also very different. The motorsport guys like talking about how to tackle a track, where to brake, etc. The classic car guys are generally older and like talking about rust and paint and where to get some ancient spare part. And the rich wankers talk about country clubs, exclusive restaurants, holidays to the South of France ...