Genelec W371A + The Ones : My quest for the Grail is over

[fluid]

In my understanding which is admittedly limited. The SBIR problem is “solved” with soffit mounting. You don’t have to. However you would do very well to do so.

The interaction with the wall behind the speakers is changed by soffit mounting them. The interaction with every other wall is also changed but SBIR is not necessarily solved.

In a studio the soffits are angled correctly, the reflection paths are determined and the energy absorbed, diffused or redirected. It is not the soffit mounting in itself that solves anything but it can be part of an overall design. The wall behind the speaker can be removed as a source of interference by mounting in it, but it is not always the only or even the main source of interference problems, depending on the size, shape and layout of the speakers and listening positions.

Mounting a speaker in a large baffle changes the directivity but mostly it actually reduces the amount of directivity, the 2pi to 4 pi transition creates directivity through diffraction.

Genelec speakers have the equalization and settings to adapt between free standing and soffit mounting, so do most other professional speakers where they might be used for either option.

 

[srrxr71]

The interaction with the wall behind the speakers is changed by soffit mounting them. The interaction with every other wall is also changed but SBIR is not necessarily solved.

In a studio the soffits are angled correctly, the reflection paths are determined and the energy absorbed, diffused or redirected. It is not the soffit mounting in itself that solves anything but it can be part of an overall design. The wall behind the speaker can be removed as a source of interference by mounting in it, but it is not always the only or even the main source of interference problems, depending on the size, shape and layout of the speakers and listening positions.

Mounting a speaker in a large baffle changes the directivity but mostly it actually reduces the amount of directivity, the 2pi to 4 pi transition creates directivity through diffraction.

Genelec speakers have the equalization and settings to adapt between free standing and soffit mounting, so do most other professional speakers where they might be used for either option.

I see.

So assuming that we hear “through the room”above 500Hz and we limit our discussion to under 500Hz would the change in under 500Hz directivity be a beneficial change? Can we assume basically we are getting a hemispheric radiation pattern in those frequencies after soffit mounting?


The built in toe in would create some issues. I guess it makes the mathematics more challenging against a flat back wall. I wonder what would happen if applied foam to the back walls that started at 2” at the center of the back wall and got thicker towards the corners in such a way it mirrors the toe in wall.

Still I guess getting the back wall out of the equation make the math about half as easy? But the toe in complicates it by a factor that could be more than double?

I suppose cardioid takes side walls out of the equation? Or at least lessens their impact significantly? So does that make cardioid a superior mid bass management technique?


Lower directivity (does that mean narrower?) isn’t necessarily a bad thing if the system is for one person. But I see where this could become an issue for home theater or mult position listening. However I believe movie theaters mount their speakers into a wall. Though I think the center channel then becomes that much more important in that situation.

I’m any case i’m getting curious to see Dutch and Dutch 8c vs W371 in room capabilities. I suppose both have their own room calibration software and graphing.

I wish we had more actual measurements.

 

[fluid]

So assuming that we hear “through the room”above 500Hz and we limit our discussion to under 500Hz would the change in under 500Hz directivity be a beneficial change? Can we assume basically we are getting a hemispheric radiation pattern in those frequencies after soffit mounting?

Mounting speakers in the wall has lots of benefits and if it is done as part of a whole room and system design by someone competent it is a very good solution. How much of the theoretical infinite baffle is seen in the measurements depends on how the speakers are mounted and the shape of the wall. Anywhere from almost 2pi to barely different to free air can be the result.

I suppose cardioid takes side walls out of the equation? Or at least lessens their impact significantly? So does that make cardioid a superior mid bass management technique?

Not really, cardioids supress rear radiation but the overall pattern is often quite wide. The D&D 8c is about 120 degrees through most of it's range.

A 15"woofer in the right cabinet can keep a similar sort of directivity down to about 300Hz without any active or passive cancellation other than the box diffraction. To have the pattern be as smooth and controlled over a wider range needs interference.

The 8C works for someone who doesn't want a very big box, doesn't have much space behind the speaker and doesn't need it to be really loud.

Lower directivity (does that mean narrower?) isn’t necessarily a bad thing if the system is for one person. But I see where this could become an issue for home theater or mult position listening. However I believe movie theaters mount their speakers into a wall. Though I think the center channel then becomes that much more important in that situation.

Lower means wider.

 

[Ambientwks]

The 8C works for someone who doesn't want a very big box, doesn't have much space behind the speaker and doesn't need it to be really loud.

Being an owner of a pair of 8c's and an about-to-be owner of the W371+8351B, I can agree with this completely.

For home listening, I don't think there are many solutions as elegant as the 8c, and am a little sad I can't keep them (but now have a bill to pay).

In the studio, the level of forensic detail from the 51 and the mains-like presentation and ability to tackle axial modes from the W371 is a clear advantage in the studio when I need to be *certain* that a mix or master is 'correct' and will translate. I am starting to work with more demanding (and savvy) clients, and sending a dud is not an option. Were it not for that, I would have probably kept my hand.

Re: Price of W371 - Iterative R&D is insanely expensive, and that's before you get to the point where you're integrating a whole speaker line via a software app that just 'works'. The initial GLM versions may have had hiccups, but the current one has you calibrated in 5 minutes. No hair pulling if you spend a few minutes with the manual beforehand. I worked as a test and measurement intern at Polk Audio back when they were more focused on 'mid-fi' and it is a gruelling process from desk, tooling, prototyping, measuring, doing subjective listening, etc. Anyone willing to do this to such a high degree earns my support.

Re: 51/61 + W371 - I slightly prefer the presentation of the 61, but I can't afford the space or the extra outlay (even if it's just a smidge). I think the differences will not be relevant enough after a bit of fine tuning.

Now, I'll have to excuse myself now to head to the studio as I have to pay for these before June when they arrive

 

[Ambientwks]

A lot of us have mancaves in which we put this kind of equipment and I could pretend it’s a home studio as well and that i’m a professional. After all I have the equipment cred.

If you do have a home studio and a dedicated room for it then why not properly soffit and treat the room? Certainly costs less than $18k even in high labor cost countries. The kits for the ones are about $500 each.

I of course am not trying to change your opinions here, but just to say that soffit mounting speakers that are this heavy usually requires re-engineering of the room, and possibly a section of the building depending on the static forces involved (e.g. are the speakers angled down? What part of the building carries the load to the required safety rating?)

Many studios also choose to 'float' the studio floor (mechanically decouple it from the foundation) while creating concrete slab towers upon which the soffited speakers sit. This eliminates unwanted vibration in the studio, even at the high SPL required at long listening distances.

I'm sure there are home studios in mansions with soffited systems, but all the cases I've heard about (or been party to), these configurations approach six figures to install, and aren't done without a contractor, acoustician, and probably an architect. Why? Because you don't want to have to move anything once installed, so the room has to be modelled to the nth degree.

With that in mind, the W371 achieves something pretty extraordinary by just being able to slap them in a room and give essentially the same quality of sound.

 

[srrxr71]

I of course am not trying to change your opinions here, but just to say that soffit mounting speakers that are this heavy usually requires re-engineering of the room, and possibly a section of the building depending on the static forces involved (e.g. are the speakers angled down? What part of the building carries the load to the required safety rating?)

Many studios also choose to 'float' the studio floor (mechanically decouple it from the foundation) while creating concrete slab towers upon which the soffited speakers sit. This eliminates unwanted vibration in the studio, even at the high SPL required at long listening distances.

I'm sure there are home studios in mansions with soffited systems, but all the cases I've heard about (or been party to), these configurations approach six figures to install, and aren't done without a contractor, acoustician, and probably an architect. Why? Because you don't want to have to move anything once installed, so the room has to be modelled to the nth degree.

With that in mind, the W371 achieves something pretty extraordinary by just being able to slap them in a room and give essentially the same quality of sound.

No doubt there are levels of systems and acoustic design. To suggest getting these replace $100k of design and construction is perhaps overstating their capabilities.

I went over the GLM manual yesterday and it states the 5 modes.

Mode 1 basically turns them into 5-way units.

Mode 2: does controlled dispersion to 50Hz - I think this is the mode most people will be buying these for. Measurements would be nice to confirm that.

Mode 3-5: can use both woofers to cancel either/or - floor reflection point, side wall reflection point, or back wall reflection point.

I have 8341s. Not very heavy. My setup is relatively near field but they are 6ft away from me each.

I would basically toe in for maximum soundstage at my listening position. Lock that in. Two pieces of sheet rock, some insulating fiber, some reinforcement plus the genelec wall mounting kit would cost maybe $3k all said and done. Kits price of $1k included.

Side reflections if they show an issue in the seating position FR graph I would treat. Back wall is taken care of. Dispersion for bass is 180 degrees as opposed to 120 degrees for the W371. So that is an advantage to the W371.

But certainly all positions must be carefully selected.

I’m not saying these are not useful for some studios. They must be for sure but there are options if you can modify your room.

At 140lbs each the portability aspect is just not that attractive.

A nice aluminum shell dual woofer units which attach to the genelec stand would be nice. Then we can also keep our existing genelec subs.

Also I hope that GLM supports multiple subs playing together and correcting for that. It currently only optimizes each sub individually.

Every day I hear the 8341 I am thankful that somebody designed and manufactured these. They are just incredible and quite the accessible end game monitors in their own right. No such thing as “reference listening” anymore. You don’t have to concentrate. Every little detail just reveals itself. It jumps at you. If you close your eyes performers can be in front of you. I would advise wholeheartedly that anyone who can stretch their budget to $6k in the sense they will not be spending for 10 years on speakers and dacs and other audio bs. That they should always just go for it and get it over with. The value proposition is incredible. Besides the sweet spot is really only foot or so wide. Your head has to be within those bounds. If inside it’s incredible. Outside it’s still good but there is no convincing center image any more. Sitting close sounds so good the image is incredible.


Not to diminish the achievement but we are talking about 2 woofers in a box each with a pEq. GLM autocal 2 does all the heavy lifting in the cloud.

 

[fluid]

Two pieces of sheet rock, some insulating fiber, some reinforcement plus the genelec wall mounting kit would cost maybe $3k all said and done. Kits price of $1k included.

Here is a good example of doing this at home. Creating a solid mounting frame needs some consideration.
http://www.cowanaudio.com/finale.html

Not to diminish the achievement but we are talking about 2 woofers in a box each with a pEq. GLM autocal 2 does all the heavy lifting in the cloud.

Creating any of the modes for an anechoic response is not hard but does require some knowledge. Doing this dynamically based on in room measurements automatically in software without any real user knowledge is a significant achievement. The level of support and assistance expected from working professionals is high and is no doubt a significant overhead that has to be factored in.

 

[Ambientwks]

No doubt there are levels of systems and acoustic design. To suggest getting these replace $100k of design and construction is perhaps overstating their capabilities.

But certainly all positions must be carefully selected.

I’m not saying these are not useful for some studios. They must be for sure but there are options if you can modify your room.

At 140lbs each the portability aspect is just not that attractive.

Every day I hear the 8341 I am thankful that somebody designed and manufactured these.

If I pick these lines out, I think we are roughly in the same ballpark. No doubt lots would be happy to do DIY projects to try to soffit their own mains, and may have success, but it's purely my preference saying that I'd never trust the results in terms of structural integrity or optimised sound without some professional help. I know how to run SMAART but the point would be to get it right the first time without doubt.

We differ slightly on the value. The W371+51/61 *does* sound like mains, and with far superior dispersion characteristics. Just check Genelec's own data for their mains. This is made possible by reducing the SPL demand by sitting the monitors closer to the listener, and then dealing with room effects. Even if I had the means to buy and install mains, I would prefer this system anyway. That again is just preference

I think the other thing that makes it worth it to me is that I can't always treat my room the way I like, and honestly I find the process really boring and expensive - so being able to throw up a couple bass traps and just using this solution is far more attractive.

Agree competely with your sentiment on the wider range. They really did something special, and not just for one segment of the market

 

[srrxr71]

Here is a good example of doing this at home. Creating a solid mounting frame needs some consideration.
http://www.cowanaudio.com/finale.html


Creating any of the modes for an anechoic response is not hard but does require some knowledge. Doing this dynamically based on in room measurements automatically in software without any real user knowledge is a significant achievement. The level of support and assistance expected from working professionals is high and is no doubt a significant overhead that has to be factored in.

Nice link. If I ever soffit mount I will refer to that article.

I guess genelec deserves to recoup r&d on the product. So I hope that after 3 years on sale something trickles down for the rest of us. Maybe $10k instead of $18k.

 

[tifune]

The W371A is not marketed as a subwoofer; they call it a “woofer system” that achieves (cardioid) directional bass via two opposed bass drivers (one facing forward on the top, and one backward on the bottom of the rear). These two (sub?)woofers do not play the same signal, but the back woofer will be playing a DSP processed derivative which when combining in the room with the pressure waves from the front woofer, forms a directional beam of bass pointing forward. That controlled directivity is what is special about this — because this is in contrast to the omnidirectional sound that most “traditional” subwoofers have, which also has the notorious problems with interacting with room modes, making it nearly impossible to achieve perfect bass for more than one or two carefully tuned precise listening positions.

The Genelec W371A claims to solve the notorious room interaction issues that subs have, achieving a far more consistent sound throughout the room which I also expect may have a far more preferable subjective quality as well due to the narrower directivity causing the pressure waves to be more frontal and consistently distributed across the listeners body when feeling the tactile sensation of bass.

The W371A are basically a high-powered midbass module, they go up to 500hz, and add the cardioid bass capability of the D&D 8C as well, making the whole set constant directivity down to 60hz. So you end up with a floorstander that has the perfect horizontal & vertical dispersion of the Ones combined with high SPL capability and cardioid bass. It also has some other modes that let it operate sort of as a toolkit to deal with room issues in its frequency range, see the manual for more info on that.

Given the KH750 has a -3dB at 750Hz, could it be used in a similar fashion? Cardioid effect not withstanding, presumably, but seems like something you could work aruond with the $7k you'd have left over (not to mention KH vs 83x1 savings).

 

[Sancus]

Given the KH750 has a -3dB at 750Hz, could it be used in a similar fashion? Cardioid effect not withstanding, presumably, but seems like something you could work aruond with the $7k you'd have left over (not to mention KH vs 83x1 savings).

I mean I guess. The point of the W371A is not to add SPL(though it does do that as a side benefit), which is basically all you accomplish by adding a colocated sub. The point of it is to prevent/ameliorate SBIR and room modes without room treatment, which is not something the KH750 can do.

 

[Cadguy]

Is it possible to use the W371A with non Genelec speakers?

 

[AdamQ]

My W371a’s arrived today. Haven’t had a chance to play with the settings on GLM but first listens are as you’d likely expect amazing. Bass definition is off the hook. Fun times ahead!!

 

[Frank Dernie]

View attachment 207527
My W371a’s arrived today. Haven’t had a chance to play with the settings on GLM but first listens are as you’d likely expect amazing. Bass definition is off the hook. Fun times ahead!!

Are those in locations anywhere near where Genelec recommend, relative to wall boundaries?
I can’t see how they can perform as designed there though GLM will probably be able to come up with a reasonable FR at a single location.

 

[abdo123]

View attachment 207527
My W371a’s arrived today. Haven’t had a chance to play with the settings on GLM but first listens are as you’d likely expect amazing. Bass definition is off the hook. Fun times ahead!!

I’m not sure a crossover at 500Hz is suitable with such a configuration.

You really should treat it like a tower speaker.

 

[AdamQ]

Are those in locations anywhere near where Genelec recommend, relative to wall boundaries?
I can’t see how they can perform as designed there though GLM will probably be able to come up with a reasonable FR at a single location.

You’re quite right. It’s not optimal positioning but that’s the perils of living in a rental. I’m toying with the idea of placing them on some industrial casters so they can be easily rolled forward for listening and then positioned back. I’m also not a pro audio industry person either so my demands I’m sure are far less exacting than if I were. And as you say, I’m sure the GLM will compensate to a fair degree. They still sound fantastic to my (untrained) ear

 

[capitanharlock]

Why not optimal, I remember Genelec advise to place them close to the back walls…

 

[galanakop]

Έχεις απόλυτο δίκιο. Δεν είναι η βέλτιστη τοποθέτηση, αλλά αυτοί είναι οι κίνδυνοι της ζωής σε μια ενοικίαση. Παίζω με την ιδέα να τα τοποθετήσω σε μερικούς βιομηχανικούς τροχούς, ώστε να μπορούν εύκολα να τυλιχτούν προς τα εμπρός για ακρόαση και μετά να τοποθετηθούν πίσω. Επίσης, δεν είμαι επαγγελματίας άνθρωπος της βιομηχανίας ήχου, οπότε είμαι βέβαιος ότι οι απαιτήσεις μου είναι πολύ λιγότερο απαιτητικές από ό,τι αν ήμουν. Και όπως λες, είμαι σίγουρος ότι το GLM θα αποζημιώσει σε ένα δίκαιο βαθμό. Ακόμα ακούγονται φανταστικά στο (απαίδευτο) αυτί μου

You’re quite right. It’s not optimal positioning but that’s the perils of living in a rental. I’m toying with the idea of placing them on some industrial casters so they can be easily rolled forward for listening and then positioned back. I’m also not a pro audio industry person either so my demands I’m sure are far less exacting than if I were. And as you say, I’m sure the GLM will compensate to a fair degree. They still sound fantastic to my (untrained) ear

Good morning. What are your sources for these speakers ???(Dac-Amp)

 

[onion]

View attachment 207527
My W371a’s arrived today. Haven’t had a chance to play with the settings on GLM but first listens are as you’d likely expect amazing. Bass definition is off the hook. Fun times ahead!!

Great set up. How does monitors + W371 compare to the monitors along? (PS are the monitors 8361 or 8351?)

 

[AdamQ]

Good morning. What are your sources for these speakers ???(Dac-Amp)

2 x Technics 1200GAE turntables
2 x Denon SC5000 media players
Topping D50s DAC

Into a Condesa Carmen analogue DJ Mixer

Which goes through an Aphex Aural Exciter

Out to the Genelecs.